Tubby Hayes New York Sessions

[Duvivierlover1960]

One more comment on this matter: any one who is interested in making a comparison, listen once more to this Tubby Hayes cd New York Scene and then go pull up some classic Duvivier dates like The Hawk Swings Vol 1 and 2 by Coleman Hawkins or any Shirely Scott Prestige lp,a ton of Etta Jones lp's like Don't Go to Strangers or Shelly Manne's 2-3-4 or even Herbie Mann's Flutin' The Bird (his best work ever, in my humble opinion) or even Straight Ahead by Oliver Nelson and Eric Dolphy and then go back and listen to the Tubby Hayes lp once more and tell me that is George Duviver playing on all of those cuts. I am fortunate enough to have over 500 recordings with George on them as I have been collecting him for 15 years and have gotten used to his sound, all of those records I mentioned were recorded in the same time period as the Hayes and see if the sound matches. The only other alternative I could think of is did he play someone else's bass on the date? Was his bass in the shop for repairs that day, for that was not his bass if he was indeed the player. I know this happens for when Ron Carter was breaking in in the early 60's (another favorite bassist of mine along with Paul Chambers, Ray Brown and O.P), Carter would often use Sam Jones' bass when Jones would play cello in the Cannonball Adderley quintet so anything is possible, but until conclusively being proven wrong and I sure do leave room to be, i am sticking to my guns on this one, been listening to George for too long to not know when something does not sound like him.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Duvivierlover1960

[AllenLowe]

Phyllis Diller -

[AllenLowe]

in case anybody's wondering, she's a very good amateur jazz bass player -

[robviti]

so your argument is based on the sound of the bass on this recording? i thought you were basing your opinion on the style of the playing, saying, in effect, that duvivier wouldn't choose those notes, isn't known for playing those kind of runs, etc. in other words, one could easily distinguish trane from getz based on their approach to the horn, regardless of how the recording sounds.

so if that's your argument - it just doesn't sound like george - then heck, I don't know what to say to that. in addition to playing a different bass, could the difference you claim to hear be attributed to the fact that the recording is almost 50 years old? or could it be the engineer? recording studio? microphones? mastering? did george have a cold that day? :wacko:

whatever, i'll concede. this is the bass player on that date!

of yeah, and this is tubby hayes!

[JSngry]

Don't know/Don't care who it is or isn't on bass, and won't take sides, but just let me say as a matter of general principle that a player's "sound" can - and does - transcend variances in recording qualities for people who get into a particular player at a particularly deep level. Now, I don't know Duvivierlover1960, so maybe he's nuts, or maybe he's one of those folks who does get into players' sounds at that deeper level. Again, don't know, don't care. I'm just saying that if he is the latter (and truthfully, the "tone" of his posts suggest to me that he is, but again, I don't really know) his claim should not be dismissed on what are "lower level" rebuttals based on "literal" elements like differences in recording quality, because there's a...."deeper" level of hearing player's voices that is beyond all that.

Ok, back to the sidelines for me.

[Pete B]

Could the fact the Eddie Costa is only on the recordings of Airegin and Doxy be taken as evidence that they were recorded on one of the two days in question, the same day as Duvivier? (this info from the Tubby Hayes discography by Barbara Schwarz). If so, given the studio scene at the time and how very busy Duvivier was, it would not be so surprising that he would call a sub for the other day of the session.

Edited February 21, 2009 by Pete B

[robviti]

except that costa also plays on pint of bitter.

i could understand it if the argument was one session featured one bass player and the other session featured another, but that isn't the case here. we are asked to believe that duvivier played on two tracks recorded one day, but not the other three tracks laid down that same day?

you're right jim, this disagreement doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. i just find it suspect that dlover claims to be an expert with knowledge that contradicts what everyone else assumes to be the truth, yet he can't offer up a more convincing argument than "i know what his bass sounds like."

and this leads me to the most confusing part of your argument, dlover. you state:

The only other alternative I could think of is did he play someone else's bass on the date? Was his bass in the shop for repairs that day, for that was not his bass if he was indeed the player.

if i read your words correctly, you're not asserting that duvivier isn't playing on all the tracks. instead, you contend that it can't be his instrument on all of the tracks because the sound of the bass is somehow "different." to me, that's quite a different argument, and a stance that is seemingly at odds with your initial statement that there is a different bassist on the first cut (possibly Wendell Marshall). as the expert, are there no distinguishing characteristics between these two bassists' approaches to their instruments and to the music itself? wouldn't these differences be a more obvious way of telling them apart?

again, i'd be interested in hearing more evidence to support your claims, as well as a clarification as to what you're actually claiming (different bassists? different basses?). in the absence of such information, i'm prepared to leave things as they are now, which frankly leaves me unconvinced in the face of insufficient evidence.

[Duvivierlover1960]

Let me see if I can clarify my position one last time: My contention is that George is not on the whole date since having seen the LP cover, having his own discography (Bassically Speaking: An Oral History of George Duvivier) and having listened to the whole date multiple times, my first point was that it did not sound like him at all, from the many dates he recorded around the same time period. After consulting his discography and see that he remembered the date and notes playing on 2 songs; Airegin and Doxie, another point is that his discography has him on another session on October 4th, the 2nd part of the Hayes date, playing alongside a vocalist called Barry Darvell on Atlantic 2138. I say all of this to say that I have become accustomed to his sound over repeated listens and when I first heard the date, my thought was " that's not George", further investigation into the date proved from the helpful LP cover listed earlier on this post that George was indeed present, but since the sound was different, were there any other possibilities? Since I knew of bassists borrowing other basses from fellow members of their craft ( Henry Grimes and Doug Watkins swapping basses on a Billy Taylor date, Ron Carter and Sam Jones using the same bass on a date when Jones played cello on a few cuts of a Cannonball Adderley Paris date in 1961, Charles Mingus and Doug Watkins using the same bass when Mingus played piano on a Atlantic date, etc) I tried to see what other possibilities existed since I was not even born when the date occurred and obviously was not there. The first thing I noticed as I said before was that the bass player on cut one was different than on the rest of the LP. My guess was based on sound, but since I am a big fan of bass players, my ears told me it may be Wendell Marshall, if the whole date was indeed George, and it can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt ( I think someone should ask Clark Terry since I think he is the sole survivor of that date) I would concede, but I have heard too many dates of George to just say it is indeed him, this is based on both style of playing and the sound of the instrument, both are different than what I am used to from him, hence my assertion that it may not be him and no one has proven me totally wrong yet. Probably, sure, totally wrong not really. I still say I have serious doubts if he is on the whole LP, based on his own discography, the Tubby Hayes discography quoted above by my good friend Pete B and the fact that George 's discography has him on yet another date on the 4th of October 1961. My ears just suggest to me that he was not on the entire date and that's my opinion and I am sticking with it until proven wrong, I have heard too many dates with him to not know what he sounds like. That is why I suggested that maybe another bass was may have been used or something else was amiss we may never know about. It just does not sound like him, I wish someone else would do what I did, which is listen to 7 or 8 of his classic recordings of that time period like Ben And Sweets, Banned in Boston by Illinois Jacquet, Budd Johnson's Blues by Budd or Downtown Manhattan or even any Arnett Cobb, Lockjaw Davis or Shirley Scott date or even the many Gene Ammons sessions and then go back and listen to the Tubby Hayes date and see if they sound like the same player, sound, intonation, technique, everything. I don't think so. Could it be him? Surely, I was not there to see that it was not him, but my ears suggest something else was amiss like another player or instrument or something we may never know about. Let the responses begin, I can defend myself if needs be. If not, nice to hear the differing opinions about a bassist I absolutely love listening to.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Duvivierlover1960

[robviti]

no need to "defend yourself," as far as i am concerned. your last post answered many of the questions i had put forth previously, and your citing different sources makes me think you're not just relying on your self-professed reputation as an "expert." for me, your consideration of technique, intonation, and other individualized characteristics is much more telling and believable than references to how the recorded bass "sounds." as jim pointed out before, a great musician's art transcends things like their instrument. that's how we know it's bird, whether his horn is made of metal or plastic. believe it or not, i'm very pleased with the fact that you've devoted so much of yourself to experiencing duvivier's playing. i also love the earthy, woody tone of a double bass, and i'm disheartened when i hear someone dismiss the instrument to a secondary role as time-keeper and harmonic anchor.

as far as duvivier is concerned, do you have any favorites among his recordings. come to think of, you could begin a new thread in the artists forum to begin such a discussion. i especially like his work with bud powell and his presence on the cookbook sessions with lockjaw.

sorry if things got a little heated between us. it wasn't until your last post that i realized you are a real fan and not just someone who likes to stifle conversation by claiming expertise. of course, we are now left with the question of "if it wasn't george, who was it?" something akin to that 3 stooges episode that asked "who threw those pies!?"

[Larry Kart]

Here's some driving Duvivier, with Arnett Cobb and Lockjaw, from Cobb's "Blow, Arnett, Blow":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG5pNru4-5Y

That should clear your sinuses.

[JSngry]

Here's some driving Duvivier, with Arnett Cobb and Lockjaw, from Cobb's "Blow, Arnett, Blow":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG5pNru4-5Y

That should clear your sinuses.

Geez man, it's been about five years since I played that album....

DAMN!!!

[BillF]

Well, one thing is certain. We can't ask Tubbs the answer - sadly.

[Free For All]

I wonder if Clark remembers.

[Duvivierlover1960]

To answer the question above about favorite Duviver recordings, I will gladly answer, here are my 10 favorite George Duviver recordings, all from my collection and stuff I have listened to dozens of times to each:

1. Herbie Mann- Flutin The Bird ( Savoy reissue of the original rare 1957 recordings, especially dig marmaduke and Now's the Time, his strongest work ever)

2. Ben Webster and Harry Edison - Ben and Sweets ( especially dig Better Go Now and Kitty from this 1962 Columbia lp, one of Ben's last before Europe trip)

3. Coleman Hawkins- The Hawk Swings

4. Lockjaw Davis - The Cookbooks Vol 1-3

5. Oliver Nelson and Eric Dolphy- Straight Ahead (Especially the cut Ralph's New Blues)

6. Eric Dolphy Out There (The duo of Duvivier and Ron Carter is fantastic)

7.Vic Dickenson Quintet ( This rare 1975 lp has a cut called Ding Dong where George plays like a monster especially his long solo)

8. Shirley Scott Girl Talk ( This Impulse LP shows why there was no bassist with an organist, period.)

9. Jimmy Smith- The Sermon ( No, not that one, the 2nd version done for Verve in 1963, listen to George tear up this track like only he can)

10.Shelly Manne 2-3-4 Superb playing by both Coleman Hawkins and by George as usual

After i get some feedback on these dates, I will add a second set of ten and then a third if needs be, for I can't say I only have 10 favorites from George when he has so much stuff I like. I also love Ron Carter, Milt Hinton, Oscar Pettiford, Sam Jones, Doug Watkins, Ray Brown especially , Mingus and who I think was the most talented bass player ever, Paul Chambers. Comments welcome.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Duvivierlover1960