Let's talk 60s, 70s Jazz Organ...

[connoisseur series500]

I've been thinking about this topic for quite some time. Still trying to forumulate my thoughts but would really appreciate everyone's input here as there's still so much I haven't heard; and what I've heard needs closer listening.

Is it fair to say that three figures stand out above the pack: Jimmy Smith, John Patton, and Larry Young?

Of the three, Jimmy Smith was the huge influence. The man's lightning fast right hand, his innovations and overall command of the B-3 is unparalleled certainly. He was a huge sun in which all these lesser planets revolved around him and gloried in his style.

What amazes me is how Big John Patton merged so quickly with his own style and didn't appear overly influenced by Smith. I think about this all the time. I don't know how to describe Patton's style, but this is the organist who intrigues me the most. He went his own way even though he didn't exactly play with the most innovative people. Patton's recordings are with people like Lou Donaldson and Grant Green, so he could have just developed like a Jack McDuff or Baby Face. This is why I feel his development is so interesting. I really admire the man. He was a great artist who showed individuality early on. I see Big John Patton in much the same way I see Woody Shaw: both were great individual artists who were really blossoming during the years of jazz decline. Pattton's 1968 recordings with James Blood Ulmer were super.

I don't feel too competent to describe Larry Young and his style. There was a thread started on this board a while back wondering how Young could have gone so quickly from a straightahead style into his modal approach so quickly. His BN recordings are masterpieces; but unlike Patton, Young played with some progressive people like Joe Henderson and Woody Shaw. Young was obviously a great innovator and I love his stuff.

After these three giants we can perhaps categorize some of the others:

Baby Face Willette and McGriff (first name escapes me right now!) were blues oriented, and I don't particularly care for their work. I know I'll get some reactions to this comment, but I just think they are as much blues players as they are jazz.

Dont quite know how to categorize Shirley Scott. I like her work with Turrentine, but I did have one of her cds with Lockjaw Davis and did not care for it. Her style is uncomplicated and clear. Does she play from a gospel approach? I don't know, but she has her own style and doesn't appear to fall under the Jimmy Smith orbit.

Then we have two who were heavily influenced by Jimmy Smith: Richard "Groove" Holmes and Don Patterson. I love Groove's stuff! He's like Jimmy Smith lite, but his music is always consistently good. He played the same way all the way into the grave. Amazingly consistent. God Bless the man.

Don Patterson played with a lightning fast right hand somewhat reminiscent of the great Smith, but I think he developed his own style as well. He didn't share Smith's predilection for the grand entrances and atmospheric sounds. I recently bought a lot of Patterson cds and haven't fully heard them all yet. Still evaluating his work, but I like what I've heard so far.

Lonnie Smith is not one of my favorites, but I do like his work with Donaldson and some of his work with Benson. The funkmaster had his own style for sure. I don't care for some of the funky soul jazz stuff, but that's my opinion.

I do not know how to categorize Jack McDuff. He seems rooted in the blues school but he was more of a jazz player in my opinion. Was he another one caught in the Jimmy Smith orbit? I don't know. I don't have too much of his work, but I think he plays somewhat like Groove Holmes in his "Honeydipper." McDuff is terrific on Grant Green's "Grantstand." Would appreciate other's posters comments about McDuff.

Charles Earland to me never got far beyond his early soul jazz masterpiece, "Black Talk!" Everything else he did seems to pale in comparison. He did that electric session called "Out of this World" or something like that. He was not the most innovative soloists, that's for sure, but he had this way of building intensity. His sideman work with Gator Jackson and Lou Donaldson is good. I've got one of his later cds "Front Burner", I believe and he plays fine on that, but it isn't an outstanding cd. Oh yes, almost forgot: "Intensity" with Lee Morgan. This could be Earland's best recording. Excellent music throughout. Needs more listening on my part. I guess I feel that Charles Earland produced a few good records but his overall output isn't that strong.

I am still exploring these people and these are just some early thoughts. Would appreciate what others think about these players and others. I know I've left out some of those organists that appear on the Legends of Acid Jazz series. I've also left out Sun Ra. I'll leave those musicians to others who are more competent to describe them.

[Jim Alfredson]

Do not forget McDuff. He was brilliant. What McDuff brought to the table was true arranging for an organ group. All the horn parts were arranged by McDuff specifically for the horn players he had at the time. And he also had the one of the best organ drummers ever (the other being Billy James) in Joe Dukes. McDuff's groups always had a sound of their own.

In speaking of Jimmy McGriff, he himself has admitted that he thinks of himself more as a blues organist than a jazz organist. All I know is that those early Sue records are KILLIN'! Try to find the two on Solid State (don't think they ever made it to CD) called "Bag Full of Soul" and "Bag Full of Blues". Fantastic records. McGriff had that swingin' bass groove like nobody else.

The Turbanator, Dr. Lonnie Smith, has to be seen live to be fully appreciated. I don't think any record has fully captured what he's all about. His first solo record on Columbia is probably my favorite of his (although all the tunes get the fade-out treatment and are too short... wonder if full versions exist in Columbia's vaults?) Again, this is not on CD but has recently been re-issued on vinyl so it should be easier to find (I paid $60 for a mint original copy back on ebay before it was re-issued).

I would like to add Bill Heid to this list too. Even though he isn't really a 60's or 70's guy, he is a direct link to that era being taught by both Larry Young and Don Patterson. If you haven't checked out any of his records yet, you're missing something BIG. I highly recommend "Dark Secrets" for that "Unity" vibe (even has the same lineup.)

[wesbed]

I received the John Patton select last week.

My only exposure to Patton, before the Select, was his playing on Grant Green’s ‘Am I Blue’ and Lou Donaldson’s ‘The Natural Soul.’ I didn’t think Patton was anything special on ‘Am I Blue’ (of course, none of the players play to their potential on this title, for me). ‘The Natural Soul,’ for whatever reason, has not yet caught my attention. It seems good but not great.

I started through the first two disks of the Patton Select and didn’t, at first, think much of them. I couldn’t easily link Patton to Jimmy Smith or Larry Young. My mind was frustrated that I couldn’t easily categorize Patton’s style with the other Blue Note organists.

Upon further listening, however, Patton seemed to emerge, for me, as his own man. I can’t explain his style (yet). It seems he’s playing notes that are simple yet not simple at all. Like he is attempting to not overshadow the other players but still shines through them from the front, the back, from underneath, and from the sides of the song. I had a passing thought, something like, that Patton is playing minimalist organ (if there is such a term?).

There is something about Patton’s playing on the Fat Judy tune which reminds me of Steely Dan. No, not that Patton sounds like Steely Dan, but that Steely Dan borrowed something from John Patton.

Edited November 30, 2003 by wesbed

[connoisseur series500]

Do not forget McDuff. He was brilliant. What McDuff brought to the table was true arranging for an organ group. All the horn parts were arranged by McDuff specifically for the horn players he had at the time. And he also had the one of the best organ drummers ever (the other being Billy James) in Joe Dukes. McDuff's groups always had a sound of their own.

In speaking of Jimmy McGriff, he himself has admitted that he thinks of himself more as a blues organist than a jazz organist. All I know is that those early Sue records are KILLIN'! Try to find the two on Solid State (don't think they ever made it to CD) called "Bag Full of Soul" and "Bag Full of Blues". Fantastic records. McGriff had that swingin' bass groove like nobody else.

The Turbanator, Dr. Lonnie Smith, has to be seen live to be fully appreciated. I don't think any record has fully captured what he's all about. His first solo record on Columbia is probably my favorite of his (although all the tunes get the fade-out treatment and are too short... wonder if full versions exist in Columbia's vaults?) Again, this is not on CD but has recently been re-issued on vinyl so it should be easier to find (I paid $60 for a mint original copy back on ebay before it was re-issued).

I would like to add Bill Heid to this list too. Even though he isn't really a 60's or 70's guy, he is a direct link to that era being taught by both Larry Young and Don Patterson. If you haven't checked out any of his records yet, you're missing something BIG. I highly recommend "Dark Secrets" for that "Unity" vibe (even has the same lineup.)

I'll definitely check out Bill Heid, Jim.

In my discussion of Lonnie Smith, I did forget to mention "Think" which is a great soul jazz session. It's probably my favorite Smith recording.

The only McDuff session I have is "Honeydripper" and I like it. But obviously I need to check him out some more as well.

[Harold_Z]

My top 3 from that era would have to become a top 4. I dug Jimmy Smith, Brother Jack, Larry Young, and Don Patterson. All the rest came after these 4 in my book, although I certainly enjoyed the playing of all the guys mentioned.

B3-er makes a good point about Mcduff's writing and arranging skills. McDuff had some kind of keyboard that you blow into (it had a reedy sound - like an accordian and I can NEVER remember what this thing was called) that he carried on the road with him as a tool to write with....imho he was a great writer for small organ groups with one or two horns. McDuff's organ bass was killin' too.

Of the younger guys I like Larry Goldings and currently am waiting for something with Sam Yahel to arrive in the mail. I've yet to hear Bill Heid and I've been looking around for something by him. I have a hunch I'm going to dig both his and Sam Yahels playing.

There's a guy in the New Jersey area named Radam Schwartz who's the real deal too. I think he did a cd for Prestige or Muse (not sure) that didn't get a lot of distribution, but the guy can play.

[Peter Johnson]

The Turbanator, Dr. Lonnie Smith, has to be seen live to be fully appreciated. I don't think any record has fully captured what he's all about.

Jim, I agree to an extent. Dr. Smith has such an incredible "ENERGY" about him--and you're right, there's very little way that can translate across speaker wires, cathode ray tubes or via the internet (there's some sick shit of his available online somewhere...another link on the board has it).

But wouldn't you agree that his recordings have an energy unlike others--specifically, a sort of "not sure where he's going next with this resolution," or "what's just slightly off about that rhythm that's making me groove?" I know you're not criticizing his playing, but I'm curious if you think that comes across in his records, like I think it does.

Not being an organist (although I am a pianist), I can't completely speak to what you're saying, and it's also easy for me to "hear" what I'm talking about in his records since I've seen him live (last night! Really opened my eyes to the world of organ in general!), but I think there's more there for the "casual" or first-time listener that doesn't have to be seen live to be appreciated.

Conn500, have you listened to Lonnie Smith's "Drive" or "Live at Club Mozambique" sides? You mentioned turning point...

[connoisseur series500]

Conn500, have you listened to Lonnie Smith's "Drive" or "Live at Club Mozambique" sides? You mentioned turning point...

It wasn't "Turning Point," Pete; it's "Think!" that I have and like.

"Mozambique" was a big disappointment for me. Can't take those wah wah guitars and funky singing. Will admit, however, that the tunes really picked up when Lonnie did his solos.

Haven't yet heard "Drive." I know that Undergroundagent talks about "Move Your hand" as his favorite Lonnie Smith.

[vibes]

The only McDuff session I have is "Honeydripper" and I like it. But obviously I need to check him out some more as well.

Conn, if you haven't checked out "Moon Rappin'," you're really missing out! I picked it up when it was the AOTW and have listened to it more times than I can count. It's definitely one of my top 5 CD purchases for this year. I just wish I could find more music like it.

[JSngry]

McDuff had some kind of keyboard that you blow into (it had a reedy sound - like an accordian and I can NEVER remember what this thing was called) that he carried on the road with him as a tool to write with....

Melodica?

[Noj]

Conn500, have you listened to Lonnie Smith's "Drive" or "Live at Club Mozambique" sides?  You mentioned turning point...

It wasn't "Turning Point," Pete; it's "Think!" that I have and like.

"Mozambique" was a big disappointment for me. Can't take those wah wah guitars and funky singing. Will admit, however, that the tunes really picked up when Lonnie did his solos.

Haven't yet heard "Drive." I know that Undergroundagent talks about "Move Your hand" as his favorite Lonnie Smith.

Conn, if you don't like Mozambique I'd say the odds are you won't like Move Your Hand or McDuff's Moon Rappin.' All three of these are funky, have wah wah pedals, and vocals.

[Harold_Z]

McDuff had some kind of keyboard that you blow into (it had a reedy sound - like an accordian and I can NEVER remember what this thing was called) that he carried on the road with him as a tool to  write with....

Melodica?

Yeah...that's it. He hooked up a rubber tube to it's mouthpiece so he could place it on a desk or table in front of him, and with pencil and manuscript, he'd write.

[Soul Stream]

"Live at Club Mozambique" doesn't have wah-wah guitar. It has George Benson burning in a conventional, straight-up style....

I guess I'll put my focus on the only guy I knew first-hand. I'm familiar with his way of thinking and personal concept of music. John Patton.

The thing you first have to realize about John is that he was a Boogie Woogie R&B pianist who was the straw boss and musical director for Lloyd Price for several years. His first real professional gig was in the house band of the Howard Theatre in Washington, D.C. His organ playing was initially just an extension of his boogie woogie piano style. Strong left hand thumping out the basslines and a blues-drenched right hand. Check out "The Natural Soul" or "Blue For Lou" to really get an idea of what I'm talking about. "Big John" off of Blues for Lou...take a good listen to that one. Imagine John playing the exact same thing on piano, THAT's his style at that point.

Forget Jimmy Smith. John didn't have TIME to figure out what Jimmy was all about. He was already playing with Lou Donaldson before he was able to really sit down and listen hard to what JOS was doing. By that time, John's style was pretty much firmly in place. John's solo style was learned on the gig. Mainly from the way Grant Green played. Grant showed John A LOT. He taught him what was hip and how jazz was played. This is the first stage of John's development.

The next stage happened when John started playing extensively in NYC and got hip to what Miles and Coltrane was doing. Jimmy Garrison was a good friend and influenced Patton's basswork. Jack DeJohnette also gigged with John and taught him a lot on piano as well. Really opening up John's conception. My point is this, John learned jazz from other jazz musicians...guitarists, horn players, bassists, piano players. He wasn't really listening to organ records or leaning over other organists' shoulders trying to catch what they were doing.

Patton had a wide musical concept. Even from the git-go. Listen to his ride on "Sow Belly Blues" from "The Natural Soul." That's his first recording and that's pretty wild stuff even for a blues. Monk was always a favorite for Big John. In my mind, Monk and Miles were about as good as it got for John. When I asked him about his favorite jazz record once, he said "that Miles quintet record, the Prestige one with the blue cover. He DUG that concept.

At John's funeral, Ben Dixon said something that stuck in my mind. "John was a melody man!" And that's the truth. He wrote original music, and his solos were ALWAYS aware of the song. No bs'ing for John. At the expense of flash, he played the song...EVERY time.

Plus, John played WHO he was. The ultimate goal. He never was interested in being someone else. If someone played something John dug, like McCoy's fourths, he incorporated them into his own thing. He never aped somebody else's bag.

Like John told me. "If you play somebody else's concept, what do you play when you're done with that???" THAT was Big John in a nutshell. A true original.

Edited December 2, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Noj]

"Live at Club Mozambique" doesn't have wah-wah guitar. It has George Benson burning in a conventional, straight-up style....

Oops, thanks for the correction. I meant "both" rather than "all three," and now that you mention it I'm not sure if Move Your Hand has wah wah either. Regardless, the funk and vocals might clash with Conn's tastes.

[connoisseur series500]

Conn500, have you listened to Lonnie Smith's "Drive" or "Live at Club Mozambique" sides?  You mentioned turning point...

It wasn't "Turning Point," Pete; it's "Think!" that I have and like.

"Mozambique" was a big disappointment for me. Can't take those wah wah guitars and funky singing. Will admit, however, that the tunes really picked up when Lonnie did his solos.

Haven't yet heard "Drive." I know that Undergroundagent talks about "Move Your hand" as his favorite Lonnie Smith.

Conn, if you don't like Mozambique I'd say the odds are you won't like Move Your Hand or McDuff's Moon Rappin.' All three of these are funky, have wah wah pedals, and vocals.

Thanks for pointing that out, Noj. They should ban wah wah guitar work from jazz!

[connoisseur series500]

At John's funeral, Ben Dixon said something that stuck in my mind. "John was a melody man!" And that's the truth. He wrote original music, and his solos were ALWAYS aware of the song. No bs'ing for John. At the expense of flash, he played the song...EVERY time.

Great post, SS.

I never thought about it before but it is clearly evident that Patton followed the song in his solos. I greatly admire his playing. He's one of the big 3.

BTW, I do remember now that Benson played on "Mozambique." No wah wah guitar but still disappointing to my ears.

[Soul Stream]

I wouldn't throw in the towel yet Conn on "Mozambique." It may turn out to be a favorite in years to come. It's certainly one of mine! I think Joe Dukes is killin' on that thing. And George, Ronnie Cuber and Lonnie really stir the pot and bring things constantly to a boil on Moz.

Not really a straight ahead date. But I think it was a 1970 date and reflects what was going over in a Detroit nightspot at the time. Funk and energy (and not much has changed since then. B) ).

Anyway, to get a firmer grip on Lonnie's current style, I'd suggest "Boogaloo to Beck." The material's not jazz, but Lonnie is LONNIE on this and it represents his "thing" more than almost anything else out there (sans the import Lenox and 7th) on CD. Give it a chance, if you're into Lonnie live.

[Peter Johnson]

Beautiful, thoughtful post, SS. Great perspective on Big John that's part of what's so great about this board.

I concur with your mention of Boogaloo to Beck. Not "jazz," perhaps, but very indicative of how Dr. Smith is playing now. Sure, he's got some "patented licks," but he really takes the Hammond apart and reconstructs it, making it his own. I guess that's the sort of thing that comes with decads of experience!

[Dan Gould]

Speaking of the good Doctor, I've got this coming from Cadence:

Funny thing, too-this French website lists it as "Lonnie Liston Smith" but I think the turban gives it away!

[Soul Stream]

Speaking of the good Doctor, I've got this coming from Cadence:

Funny thing, too-this French website lists it as "Lonnie Liston Smith" but I think the turban gives it away!

Yes, yes, yes Dan. THIS is Lonnie's GREATEST recording ever...hands down. It's HIM doing HIS thing, the way he plays on gigs today that never gets captured in the studio...except once...on THIS CD, "Lenox and 7th." This is the baddest, baddest stuff from Lonnie in a straight ahead style. Period!!!!

[davef]

SS. let me pile on the bandwagon in praise of your wonderful thoughtful post about Big John... so glad you had the pleasure to know him!

[Soul Stream]

SS. let me pile on the bandwagon in praise of your wonderful thoughtful post about Big John... so glad you had the pleasure to know him!

Thanks. It's nice to talk about him. I could go on forever about it, and my post only scratches the surface. However, someday I'm going to really take the time to write a looonnnng post about Big John. He was a real genuine person. Deep. A spiritual person, but down to earth all the while. Just like his music. That was the beautiful thing about him. If you know his music, you know Patton. He talked and walked and laughed in the same way as he phrased a run on the organ.

The only guy I knew who would play his instrument 10 hours a day and not have a gig for a month.

[connoisseur series500]

Anyone else heard Don Patterson's "Dem NY Dues?"

That's one good record.

[Soul Stream]

...By the way, I meant "Sow Belly Blues," NOT "Spaceman Twist" in my earlier Big John post. I've corrected my error. But in re-listening this morning was reminded again at how that track points the direction for John's whole career in a way. Blues-based EXPLORING.

[Peter Johnson]

Lonnie Smith, "Afro-Desia." HELLYEAH! Has anyone else heard this from 1975? With Joe Lovano on sax? I just got it from Dusty Groove on reissued wax, and it kicks some serious ass. Slightly odd, however, is the fact that the turbanator is playing some sort of synth on the first track. Loving this.

[connoisseur series500]

Here's someone I forgot to mention in my opening post: Reuben Wilson. I don't think he's got a large body of oevre, but "Love Bug" is about as good as a groovin organ session can get. "Blue Mode" is also very good.