Jazz Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Within the patterns of CRAFT, selectivity and editing play a huge role. I agree with that to a point. But, lets say, no one's going to try to argue with the fact that most ears tend to hear half steps as leading tones. No one's going to try and argue that most ears don't naturally hear V chords resolving to I. These are the basic building blocks of music. How can anyone make anything new or surprising if they don't first understand the "craft" part of music? How can someone surprise you by frustrating a leading tone or resolving what sounded like a simple chord progression V to some whacked out mode unless they understand how those things have been used before? That's what I'm trying to get at, though many people here could probably make the same point much more articulately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 I ain't got the words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 (edited) Isn't it kind of passe to talk shit about pop music already? That is so 2002 and we're already into 2004 almost! Pop music has matured past any detection of a prime, as has the discussion of its merit. We aren't going to bring any new criticisms to the table at this point. It is going to continue to sell despite our bitching session and most of what we consider jazz is not. The new Outkast is not a godsend to pop music, no, but it is an attempt to find is way out of the wet paper bag we so admirable refer to as pop. I prefer more of their earlier stuff, but cracked up the first time I heard Andre's side! Big Boi's side is super weak when compared with earlier recordings in my opinion. All that bullshit aside, if you want to hear what I think epitomizes the most recent flash of brilliance in hip-hop, you'll have to go back to the early-mid 1990s. The first round of Wu Tang albums, including Enter the 36 Chambers, Liquid Swords, Only Built 4 Cuban Linx, Tical, Ironman, was a brief pinnacle in recent hip-hop. RZA, or Robert Diggs if you prefer to go by Christian names, brought an original style back into the production room with obscure samples, off-beat rhythms, and hooks not as obvious as everything else that was going on around him at the time. In addition, the group of MCs that had assembled under the name Wu Tang Clan around Robert Diggs was busting out at the seams with lyrics and mike styles all their own. They were described by awed critical acclaim as "raw." As the years pass, they have lost a lot of the rough edge they came out of the gates with a decade or so ago, but the original recordings still stand alone in my collection. I'll recommend them in the following order: The top three are essential. What were we talking about again? edit: image Edited December 22, 2003 by .:.impossible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catesta Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 The problem with modern R&B or hip hop or whatever you want to call it is a complete lack of song-writing skills. Even Musiq, who everybody touts and being "influenced by Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder", etc... even his tunes are just a simple four bar phrase repeated ad nauseum. The same four bars serves as verse, chorus, bridge, etc. It requires no craft what-so-ever. Sure, the beats are cool. But the stuff gets boring after you're into the second verse because you know that nothing else is going to happen. That's it. That's the song. Get a funky beat going for four bars, loop it, sing some made-up melody over the top, have a chorus and boom, there's your song. It's pitiful. Influence by Stevie, eh? Go back and listen to how Stevie actually constructs a song and doesn't sing melisma over every square inch of it... Word! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 I apologize. There are some bad things I've noticed about the way I speak about music: 1) It makes me sound pretentious 2) It makes me sound impassioned 3) It is confusing to people who haven't book studied music So, here is an attempt to stop being pretentious, but I don't know how I'll do at it! Since Bach and the Baroque era, certain things became very standard in all western music. You can call these things "rules", but I prefer to call them "tendencies". As in, musicians always tended to do things a certain way. Not EVERYTHING they did, but enough things that you could begin to craft a rule set or a style definition with it. As the styles changed (Baroque to Classical, Classical to Romantic, Romantic to Impressionistic, and then to 20th Century) certain core elements remained ingrained in each style, and have remained in most music since then. This is my assertion and I will always defend it because I believe it is true. My preference then, is music that 1) follows these tendencies 2) adds to this legacy of "tendencies", 3) changes these "tendencies", or 4) PURPOSELY defies these "tendencies". You'll notice that PURPOSELY is in capitals and I'll explain why. Plenty of popular music breaks these tendencies, but half of these musicians aren't even aware that they are doing it! I want to know that I am spending my money on someone's honest effort to make art. If they won't even expend the effort to be aware of how or where their music is splitting off from these tendencies then it is, IMO, not worth my attention. BTW, I am NOT of the opinion that it takes "book learning" to be aware of these tendencies. Plenty of Jazz musicians have proven that. Anyways, that's where I'm coming from, I hope that it clarifies things. I also acknowledge and FULLY admit that I know next to nothing about music. I can talk the talk, but walking the walk is beyond me at the moment. The guys in Organissimo are light years ahead of me (I've heard the bands MP3's and WHEW!). I also know there are other accomplished musicians here. So, then, if there are any cats out there who know what I'm trying to get at and could say it better than me, any help would be MUCH appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 ARRGH, Clinton! I just got finished with my last post you scoundrel! Okay I'll try to keep it short... Originally Posted by Clinton There are few forms of music out there without a formula, including perhaps only non-idiomatic improvised music. Even then, they follow the formula of getting together, beginning a performance and ending it. That is a formula in the most basic sense. I think a good deal of jazz follows the formula of improvising over changes, most simply as head solo head. You are correct, that IS the formula (craft) part of Jazz and any Jazz musician worth their salt should know it inside and out. The ART part of Jazz is the interaction, the musical conversation that happens in the spur of the moment. I've never heard ANY other kind of music do THAT on the level of sophistication that Jazz does it. That is why I put Jazz on a pedastal. But, actually, I would be relieved to hear some examples of music that have as high a level of interaction as Jazz does, because it would bode much better for the future of music as a whole. So, if you have any examples I would really, REALLY welcome them. Personally I find MOST kinds of music these days to be 90% craft and 10% art. Please do not call me on the percentages and how I come up with them as I am fully being facetious. Originally Posted by Clinton Would Ornette agree with you as he plays the trumpet or violin? Sonny Sharrock? Are we to ask the players on the chitlin circuit to learn fugues and sonatas before we take them seriously, lest they somehow disrespect the high art of music? I have always had trouble with this argument. To think that not learning the rudiments of the hocket, organum, or motet should shame the 15 year olds with guitars in their garages into music theory is nutty. I know this is not waht you specified, but that is the logic extrapolated, as I see it. This is where we will probably always disagree. I do not care if Ornette, Sonny, Coltrane, or anyone else agrees with me. And I stated this in my last post, before you had a chance to read it, but it doesn't take book learning. It takes a LOVE of MUSIC. Anyone who LOVES music is going to want to hear as many kinds of music as are out there, including the modal chorals of the renaissance, fugues, sonatas, symphonies, rock, pop, rap, r&b, folk, folk from other nations such as raga, jigs, polkas, mariachi and chants. They are going to spend concentrated time LISTENING and absorbing. That's all it really takes to understand the tendencies of music. Book learning helps some cats, but it isn't important to know the jargon, it is only important to understand what music is and where it came from. And are we to ask the players to LISTEN before they PLAY? YES!! That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 Jazz: No need to apologize! I think I can see what you are trying to say, but as you said before, we just disagree. In order to break the rules and conventions of standard-notation Western music, it is more easily and thoroughly accomplished if you know what rules you are breaking. I would agree with this, with one caveat; someone can stumble upon revolutionary musical concepts all on their own, without formal training. Some of the greatest jazz figures came up through the working-class musician ranks of R&B bands or Army bands and such, to make their impacts later in their careers. Eric Dolphy is an example, and Albert Ayler is another. I've got to go soon, so this will be my last reply. I just wanted to thank you for putting it into simple words for me! You nailed it on the head I think, what I was trying to say. As for your condition with agreeing with my idea, I would issue this challenge: How many of those Jazz musicians listened to a crazily wide range of music, even if they only played a few certain styles? I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but if you give me specific examples of Jazz musicians who only listened to the styles they played and still made brilliant developments I will be forced to consider this point of view at length (your assertion doesn't seem unreasonable to me, you've made me pretty curious!). Okay, I'm off pretty soon. C-ya guys on the flipside! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted December 22, 2003 Report Share Posted December 22, 2003 It makes me sound pretentious Aw, come on, Jazz; you have a clown as your avatar; how pretentious are you gonna sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 FWIW, I wrote a review of the latest Outkast here, which deals with it as serious art. I'm guessing some people here may not get into it, but it's important if you're interested in what creative younger black artists are doing. Excellent review, Chuck. I think "Speakerboxxx/The Love Below" is brilliant in its audacity, but it's not quite the "Sgt. Pepper" of hip-hop that some are making it out to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 (edited) The problem with modern R&B or hip hop or whatever you want to call it is a complete lack of song-writing skills. Even Musiq, who everybody touts and being "influenced by Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder", etc... even his tunes are just a simple four bar phrase repeated ad nauseum. The same four bars serves as verse, chorus, bridge, etc.  It requires no craft what-so-ever. Sure, the beats are cool. But the stuff gets boring after you're into the second verse because you know that nothing else is going to happen. That's it. That's the song. Get a funky beat going for four bars, loop it, sing some made-up melody over the top, have a chorus and boom, there's your song. It's pitiful. Influence by Stevie, eh? Go back and listen to how Stevie actually constructs a song and doesn't sing melisma over every square inch of it... Something that needs to be said about hip hop/rap music--I wasn't entirely comfortable with one of the definitions given above--is that the music of hip hop culture is a direct result of Jamaican dancehall deejays making their way to NYC. Now, in Jamaica the term "deejay" does not refer to someone mixing records on turntables but rather to someone on a microphone interjecting lines during and in between songs as a way to keep the crowd into the proceedings. Eventually, deejays like Big Youth, U-Roy and King Stitt became artists in their own right. This tradition (again) eventually made its way to NYC where, like in Jamaica, the deejays (or "toasters" as they were originally called) became top billing. Needless to say, the US version of ther term "DJ" won out and toasters became "rappers" in the States. AMG's genre bio (here), while short, is relatively accurate despite the fact that they list DJ Shadow among the other deejays. Shadow, as some of you might know is an instrumentalist, making his classification as a deejay (which by definition is a vocalist), completely baffling. All of this is to say that rap music is repetitive because its mother and father are Jamaican dancehall culture and James Brown. End of story. Teenagers in Brooklyn were NOT listening to Last Poets records in the late 70's folks; that is unless their parents were college educated liberals. This is an absolutely fascinating topic. Hip hop culture is a really beautiful thing in my opinion. Grounded at its very core in community. Edited January 5, 2004 by Brandon Burke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I finally bought some hip-hop over the holiday. I picked up a couple of OutKast cds. I also bought De La Soul's STAKES IS HIGH, Black Star, Jurassic 5. I've been digging these cds. So far OutKast is my favorite. My wife is in shock that I'm listening to this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 (edited) I finally bought some hip-hop over the holiday. I picked up a couple of OutKast cds. I also bought De La Soul's STAKES IS HIGH, Black Star, Jurassic 5. I've been digging these cds. So far OutKast is my favorite. My wife is in shock that I'm listening to this stuff. My wife hasn't heard mine because I don't play them around my daughter. (Because of all the swearing and suggestive stuff. Maybe when she's older...) Edited January 5, 2004 by Alexander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 My wife hasn't heard mine because I don't play them around my daughter. (Because of all the swearing and suggestive stuff. Maybe when she's older...) Don't worry, I played my CDs for her in the car (with my son not present). I'd be in trouble if he picked up any new words. I think my listening will be confined to the car and to headphones. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTMX Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 (edited) I finally bought some hip-hop over the holiday. I picked up a couple of OutKast cds. I also bought De La Soul's STAKES IS HIGH, Black Star, Jurassic 5. I've been digging these cds. So far OutKast is my favorite. Every now and then I'll see OutKast's Dre/Andre 3000 at Churchill Grounds, Atlanta's best jazz club - he's the guy standing under the biggest afro in the room. Dre's got a real interest in jazz - he asked a friend of mine about giving him sax lessons and sometimes uses the local jazz cats on various Dungeon Family-related recordings. That said, I'm not familiar with their work outside of "BOB (Bombs Over Baghdad)" and "Hey Ya". Now Jurassic 5 - those guys are the best crew working today (IMHO). Old school tongue-twisting rhymes, some five-part harmony, intelligent, clever, witty - delivering a (mostly) positive message with just a little bit of trash talking thrown in. Kind of like the "Bernie Mac Show" set to music. How can you not like a group that introduces their members by name and zodiac sign ala "Float On" by the Floaters? Power in Numbers is their latest release but I think I enjoy Quality Control a little more. One of my all time favorites: Heavy Rhyme Experience, Vol. 1 by The Brand New Heavies - a British band playing American funk with Grand Puba, Gang Starr and others contributing. It's an odd combination but it works. Edited January 5, 2004 by DTMX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTMX Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I think my listening will be confined to the car and to headphones. B) Most of my rap/hip-hop listening takes place at work - just look for the pudgy 40 year old office drone typing away in his cubicle with Public Enemy's "Fight the Power" thumping out of his headphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I think my listening will be confined to the car and to headphones. B) Most of my rap/hip-hop listening takes place at work - just look for the pudgy 40 year old office drone typing away in his cubicle with Public Enemy's "Fight the Power" thumping out of his headphones. Hey, you just described me! I'm listening to OutKast right now. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 It is about textures, embellishments, etc. Yes. (Couldn't have put it better...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 I finally bought some hip-hop over the holiday. I picked up a couple of OutKast cds. I also bought De La Soul's STAKES IS HIGH, Black Star, Jurassic 5. I've been digging these cds. So far OutKast is my favorite. Every now and then I'll see OutKast's Dre/Andre 3000 at Churchill Grounds, Atlanta's best jazz club - he's the guy standing under the biggest afro in the room. Dre's got a real interest in jazz - he asked a friend of mine about giving him sax lessons and sometimes uses the local jazz cats on various Dungeon Family-related recordings. That said, I'm not familiar with their work outside of "BOB (Bombs Over Baghdad)" and "Hey Ya". Dre's half of "Speakerboxxx/The Love Below" is VERY jazz influenced (as well as funk influenced, rock influenced). It doesn't surprise me that he digs jazz. In fact, it makes me glad! The best, most forward thinking musicians always look for good ideas outside their chosen genre. Charlie Parker dug Hank Williams. Robert Johnson dug Bing Crosby. Ray Charles' favorite radio show as a child was the Grand Ole Opry. Genres are the hobgoblin of little minds, to mangle a quote. Music is music is music is music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 did anyone see when outkast got punk'd? ss1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 (edited) did anyone see when outkast got punk'd? Yes, that was pretty funny. I bought that new record and like it--well, Andre's side anyways--but doesn't anyone else think it sounds too much like a Pro Tools/synth record? I miss the days of dusty soul samples. [sigh...] Edited January 6, 2004 by Brandon Burke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kari S Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 did anyone see when outkast got punk'd? Yes, that was pretty funny. I bought that new record and like it--well, Andre's side anyways--but doesn't anyone else think it sounds too much like a Pro Tools/synth record? I miss the days of dusty soul samples. [sigh...] Yeah, I do. And why do they have to use the cheesiest and corniest of all the synth patches? Like that tune "Ghettomusic" on Big Boi's disc - hideous. What do think of Andre's vocal and instrumental harmonies? I feel they're sometimes quite off the mark. I'll say again what I said earlier in this thread, 'Dre's disc was obviously influenced by Prince, with the exception that Prince did it better. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 The vocals don't bother me at all. I rather like his southern swagger. As for comparisons to Prince, they're simply unavoidable. Choosing which is "better" is kind of a moot point IMHO. Prince did it first (and quite a while ago by now) so....end of story. Big Boi's vocal delivery/flow/whatever drives me up the wall. I can't even listen to that disc. Too many 16th notes. He needs to either mix it up or something. Sounds the same on every single song. Well, to these ears anyway. I know it makes me an old-timer but I'm waiting patiently for Pete Rock Soul Survivor 2 to drop in the late winter/early spring. There's also a new C.L. Smooth solo LP coming out as well featuring tracks produced by Pete. And Planet Asia still hasn't released a proper full length after all this time. There's also that Quest reunion record but The Love Movement was absolutely dreadful so I'm not holding my breath for Low End Theory Revisited. Lastly, though I haven't cared about them in about 10 years, word is that the new Beastie Boys LP is being produced by Prince Paul. Sounds interesting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 The Beastie BOYS, they are they comin' home, they comin home, aww they comin home. Sorry. I listened to Check Your Head twice this week. Hey Brandon, I thought Big Youth was the best thing I ever heard first time I listened to Screaming Target. It might not have the staying power it once did, but I'm wondering if you could recommend other DJ recordings that I might like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) Hey Brandon, I thought Big Youth was the best thing I ever heard first time I listened to Screaming Target. It might not have the staying power it once did, but I'm wondering if you could recommend other DJ recordings that I might like. Well, I'm not a particularly big fan of deejay stuff but there are a few I really enjoy. I mentioned it above simply as a historical timeline kind of thing. Either way, anything in the Blood & Fire catalog (deejay or otherwise) is worth owning. Among their deejay releases are: Jah Stitch - Original Ragga Muffin I-Roy - Don't Check Me With No Lightweight Stuff U Brown - Train to Zion These are all great. I think I prefer the Jah Stitch best and then U Brown next. If I remember right, the Stitch and Brown sets are blessed with the mixing talents of King Tubby, Prince Jammy and/or Scientist. So you can't lose there. Also of note (if you have a record player) is Fire Corner by The Dynamites. Includes some very wierd King Stitt vocal tracks as well as some semi-*out* horn solos. Reminds me of Sun Ra. So there you go... Edited January 7, 2004 by Brandon Burke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Also check out the tune "Hotter Reggae Music" on the Blood & Fire comp Darker Than Blue for a great example of the deejay-to-rap transition. Here you have a Jamican vocalist borrowing "Rapper's Delight" in the middle of an otherwise standard reggae song. It all makes sense.... By the way, how brilliant is that Blood & Fire artwork.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.