Black-Jewish nexus in American music

[fasstrack]

After reading of the cited poem on the thread on Baraka in jazz in print, after the passing of my longtime friend Wade, a black guy I, a middle-class jew,started trying to play jazz with in the early '70s today I came upon a book by one Jeffrey Melnick: A Right to Sing the Blues. Oddly enough Amiri Baraka found his way into the introduction when Melnick recounted a panel discussion at the Village Vanguard also including Archie Schepp and Larry Rivers that got, well, heated. It was hard to get through the book due to Melnick's heavy handed prose style, but he had a fascinating premise in exploring that nexus. (And, damn, how that Baraka gets around!)

These dovetailing experiences are the reason for me to ponder this stuff---the exchange, the songs by Arlen, Gershwin, etc. songs played by jazz musicians, the influence of jazz on them to write the way they did, and so many more things.

As a teen in Canarsie I rebelled against my middle-class Jewish family partly by hanging out with Black kids (capitalizing both in a rare deference to PC) and getting into their music. It changed my life, and one time I was even able to head off a potential incident at the high school by picking up the guitar (I was 17 and not very good, but something bigger than me was coursing through my fingers evidently) and playing with members of a black R&B band called Qualified Funk (later Exit 9). We cooled everything out. That was an eye-opening experience in the curative powers of music. In my years I've yet to have another as powerful--but, in the back of my mind I think, am always trying.

But we live in the real world. I see from the Baraka thread that the raw nerves around in the 60s are very much alive, especially on the Jewish side. I haven't seen input from Blacks on that here. Anyway, my intent is not to instigate controversy, conflict, or anything, just---by recounting my experience---to spark discussion on the similarities of two peoples with remarkably similar histories, even similarities---which I can hardly be the first to point out---between klezmer and jazz and blues in the bending of notes, microtonal qualities, emotional plaintiveness---existing in a diaspora together. We overlap like crazy, do we not? In short, I can't imagine jazz without either black players or Gershwin's songs. Yet bickering and mistrust outside of the bandstand persists. Well, this is America. But, as a therapist once said' how did we get so fahblunged? And can that beautiful crossroads that made jazz and much else in American popular music unique be the foundation and lesson for people actually growing up and acknowledging each other's contributions and the realization that we are all human and the similarities are worth more than the differences?

Edited March 5, 2012 by fasstrack

[Bright Moments]

I enjoy this:

[AllenLowe]

there's been at least one book written on the affinity for Jews and jazz - all I would add is that this is not ethnically unique - think of all the Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans who have played. With Jews, I do believe a lot of the connection is intellectual.

[fasstrack]

there's been at least one book written on the affinity for Jews and jazz - all I would add is that this is not ethnically unique - think of all the Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans who have played. With Jews, I do believe a lot of the connection is intellectual.

Explain....

[JSngry]

A lot of the dissatisfaction I've heard/still hear has not so much to do with playing as with business, the "ownership structure" of the music - clubs, agents, record labels, critics, etc.

Not saying I agree with it, just that that's what I've heard. There's been a historic lack of any real "sense of ownership" of the music by its players, and that will inevitably lead to frustration into bitterness into...wherever.

Take away the ethnic aspects, and it's classic ownership vs labor. But this is America, where taking away the ethnic aspect of things takes a literal act of Congress, and even then...

And no, I do not accept the simplistic notion that "Jews/Whitey/Whoever Own Jazz" any more than I accept the notion that "Only Blacks Can Play Real Jazz". The true fact of the matter is that business will serve its own needs first, no matter who's running the show. People who have worked on the Southern Chitlin' Circuit, where this is a fair amount of up-front Black ownership structure, learn this lesson the good old-fashioned way.

I still maintain that the lack of a general economic wholeness is the most damning, unresolved legacy of slavery, and it's the one that is probably impossible to fix at this point by anything other than time. That's got nothing to do with music per se, but a lot to do with a lot of people who have played the music over the years. Chris Rock's bit about "rich" vs "wealthy" rings true. Things are gradually changing, but...a legacy is still a legacy. To find fault with people who had opportunity, motivation, and good business sense is assbackwards, but so is not understanding the pissoffedness of people who reach for their own economic "there" and eventually find...somebody else's. And yes, things are changing, really so within the last 20 years or so. But we're talking about jazz here, and these days, when there's change in the word, jazz is usally the last one to know.

And I know, I know, we're all poor, we all come from poor, we all worked our way up from nothing, we all know too many people who can't handle money, nobody gets rich on jazz blahblahblah. Whatever.

I say the best way to rebut the bullshit is to deal with the legit. Easier said than done, but it's the only way.

Chris Rock, for those who have been away for a while:

[fasstrack]

Also, just to clarify, by no means am I being simplistic by inferring that Semitic and African influences are the summation of jazz. Just that this is hitting me for the reasons stated.

A lot of the dissatisfaction I've heard/still hear has not so much to do with playing as with business, the "ownership structure" of the music - clubs, agents, record labels, critics, etc.

Not saying I agree with it, just that that's what I've heard. There's been a historic lack of any real "sense of ownership" of the music by its players, and that will inevitably lead to frustration into bitterness into...wherever.

Take away the ethnic aspects, and it's classic ownership vs labor. But this is America, where taking away the ethnic aspect of things takes a literal act of Congress, and even then...

And no, I do not accept the simplistic notion that "Jews/Whitey/Whoever Own Jazz" any more than I accept the notion that "Only Blacks Can Play Real Jazz". The true fact of the matter is that business will serve its own needs first, no matter who's running the show. People who have worked on the Southern Chitlin' Circuit, where this is a fair amount of up-front Black ownership structure, learn this lesson the good old-fashioned way.

I still maintain that the lack of a general economic wholeness is the most damning, unresolved legacy of slavery, and it's the one that is probably impossible to fix at this point by anything other than time. That's got nothing to do with music per se, but a lot to do with a lot of people who have played the music over the years. Chris Rock's bit about "rich" vs "wealthy" rings true. Things are gradually changing, but...a legacy is still a legacy. To find fault with people who had opportunity, motivation, and good business sense is assbackwards, but so is not understanding the pissoffedness of people who reach for their own economic "there" and eventually find...somebody else's. And yes, things are changing, really so within the last 20 years or so. But we're talking about jazz here, and these days, when there's change in the word, jazz is usally the last one to know.

And I know, I know, we're all poor, we all come from poor, we all worked our way up from nothing, we all know too many people who can't handle money, nobody gets rich on jazz blahblahblah. Whatever.

I say the best way to rebut the bullshit is to deal with the legit. Easier said than done, but it's the only way.

Chris Rock, for those who have been away for a while:

We'd be naive to ignore these things. But the miracle---and the lesson---is that the music finds a way to sidestep all the shit and rise above. Art is a great teacher. Edited March 5, 2012 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

Art is indeed a great teacher, just as money is a great eraser.

[AllenLowe]

the "ownership" thing is a smokescreen - there's plenty of non-Jewish thieves in the business, and the few black-owned labels - like Duke Peacock and Vee Jay - were as bad as everybody else.

to answer Joel - I (we) come from an intellectual tradition which is open on all sides, to a lot of cultural possibilities, and that is one of the things that attracted me to an form of music like jazz. It's not only smart but it's deep like the greatest literature. And I tend to be analytical about it, in a non-academic way (which in its own way is a descendent Jewish tradition, as many of its intellectuals came out of the working class).

one problem, btw, with that Chris Rock routine is that Oprah is, indeed, wealthy. As is Cosby.

Edited March 5, 2012 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

the "ownership" thing is a smokescreen - there's plenty of non-Jewish thieves in the business, and the few black-owned labels - like Duke Peacock and Vee Jay - were as bad as everybody else.

I believe I said as much myself. And people who found out,...well, they found out. But we're talking perception, not reality. Which is not to say that the perception is not being used for all kinds of political manipulations. Of course it is.

But by any measurement, the percentage of white ownership in the "black music" business has been, historically, disproportionately white (what percentage is/has been Jewish, I have no idea, not really keeping score. And anyway, good business sense, capitalizing on an opportunity, and making something happen, hell, that's a good thing, as is creating wealth for your family and not pissing it away on rims for a toaster ). Duke Peacock (didn't he used to work for NBC?) & Vee Jay, those are the exceptions, and really, who owns them now?

People who had the wealth to purchase the assets, that's who. C'est la vie.

one problem, btw, with that Chris Rock routine is that Oprah is, indeed, wealthy. As is Cosby.

Yeah, but Oprah just owns the color purple (and I think she co-owns it with Prince). White folks own the color BLUE! :g

Chris Rock is a comedian above all, but as much quibbling over the specifics as you can do, the underlying truths are still there. Money and wealth are not the same thing.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JSngry

[jazzbo]

There was jazz before Gershwin. . . .

I think there were many nexuses in jazz over the decades, and thus it's reputation as "American music" is well-applied. I think that the mists of bullshit and chest-pounding claims will possibly always obscure and dirty its origins, but there are many groups that have had a deep influence on the music.

[fasstrack]

Art is indeed a great teacher, just as money is a great eraser.

Damn, and all these years I thought it was rubber.

Uh oh.....

Art is indeed a great teacher, just as money is a great eraser.

Damn, and all these years I thought it was rubber.

Uh oh.....

the "ownership" thing is a smokescreen - there's plenty of non-Jewish thieves in the business, and the few black-owned labels - like Duke Peacock and Vee Jay - were as bad as everybody else.

to answer Joel - I (we) come from an intellectual tradition which is open on all sides, to a lot of cultural possibilities, and that is one of the things that attracted me to an form of music like jazz. It's not only smart but it's deep like the greatest literature. And I tend to be analytical about it, in a non-academic way (which in its own way is a descendent Jewish tradition, as many of its intellectuals came out of the working class).

one problem, btw, with that Chris Rock routine is that Oprah is, indeed, wealthy. As is Cosby.

We must be intellectual. Half of us don't believe in God...

Me, I'm glad Cosby and Oprah are wealthy. They deserve to be. Now if only only I could be. Are you listening, God? Oh, oops. I forgot...

Guess I'll have to go out and make it myself........

There was jazz before Gershwin. . . .

I think there were many nexuses in jazz over the decades, and thus it's reputation as "American music" is well-applied. I think that the mists of bullshit and chest-pounding claims will possibly always obscure and dirty its origins, but there are many groups that have had a deep influence on the music.

Men are such big babies. (It's always men doing the chest pounding). I remember Warne Marsh telling us at a jam session at Jared Bernstein and Rob Shneiderman's place how men 'always go out and start wars b/c they're so jealous of women being able to give life'. And beat their chests and claim to have invented stuff.

Big babies........

Edited March 5, 2012 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

BTW, Jim, in complete seriousness I'm so sick of that canard about money corrupting art (if that's what you meant). Bullshit. Artists deserve to live like human beings. The shit is hard work, the life harder. Bad art will corrupt art.

[JSngry]

BTW, Jim, in complete seriousness I'm so sick of that canard about money corrupting art (if that's what you meant).

Didn't mean that at all.

I meant that having money, some real money, not just some spare change (in the pocket or in the bank), can go a long way towards erasing a generalized anger and the need to lash out in the hopes of hitting something. A lot of "your own kind" having the same thing can do the same thing, probably more so. Putting money back into your family, your community, etc. beats the hell out of feeling like you're basically there to be somebody else's cash-crop. Having your own economic "there" to which you can go (or at least feel like you have a chance of going) instead of somebody else's.

OTOH, money can turn decent-enough people into vile, loathsome, dangerous creatures.

And yeah, this holds true for everybody.

Either way, it's a hell of an eraser, this money thing is.

Too late, I learn this lesson for myself.

[fasstrack]

BTW, Jim, in complete seriousness I'm so sick of that canard about money corrupting art (if that's what you meant).

Didn't mean that at all.

I meant that having money, some real money, not just some spare change (in the pocket or in the bank), can go a long way towards erasing a generalized anger and the need to lash out in the hopes of hitting something. A lot of "your own kind" having the same thing can do the same thing, probably more so. Putting money back into your family, your community, etc. beats the hell out of feeling like you're basically there to be somebody else's cash-crop. Having your own economic "there" to which you can go (or at least feel like you have a chance of going) instead of somebody else's.

OTOH, money can turn decent-enough people into vile, loathsome, dangerous creatures.

And yeah, this holds true for everybody.

Either way, it's a hell of an eraser, this money thing is.

Too late, I learn this lesson for myself.

Oh. OK. Thanks.

What a missed opportunity for an argument, though....

'Is this the department of arguments'.

'No, sir. Afraid it isn't'........etc.

Monty Python sketch

[Chuck Nessa]

From my experience, in rural areas white, christian "owners" were really shitty to blacks and in urban areas jewish "owners" were really shitty to blacks. In the latter part of the 20th century African Americans had shit coming from all sides. The white christians and jewish folks should absorb the results and figure them into a personal history.

By "owners" means bosses, folks in control, landlords, etc.

[Big Wheel]

I mentioned this in the John Carisi thread briefly...the SF CJM has an exhibit on this very topic: http://www.thecjm.org/index.php?option=com_ccevents&scope=exbt&task=detail&oid=51 . It's not particularly thoughtful IMO but I did enjoy being introduced to the Johnny Hartman calypso/Yiddish mashup of "That Old Black Magic" from Unforgettable.

[fasstrack]

From my experience, in rural areas white, christian "owners" were really shitty to blacks and in urban areas jewish "owners" were really shitty to blacks. In the latter part of the 20th century African Americans had shit coming from all sides. The white christians and jewish folks should absorb the results and figure them into a personal history.

By "owners" means bosses, folks in control, landlords, etc.

It only takes a small leap of faith to apply the analogy to Obama getting it from all sides*. Post-racial? Gimme a break. We've learned nothing, made no progress in the department of race relations. It's worse b/c people resent him all the more b/c he's both smarter than them and squeaky clean, so mud won't stick.

As Bill Finegan told me we're 'a nation of barbarians'.

*To clarify: not from 'owners', as such, but from everyone dying to see him fail, some of whom I believe are more racist than they'd admit---even to themselves.

Edited March 6, 2012 by fasstrack

[johnlitweiler]

"Owns" jazz? Who owns it? In my experience, mostly in Chicago, in the last few decades the small labels that have kept the music documented and the clubs and concert presenters that have presented the music are hardly villains out to make fortunes by stiffing musicians.

Martin Williams in 1974 remarked that, after African-Americans, first Jewish and second Italian musicians were the most frequent backgrounds in jazz. Still true?

[fasstrack]

"Owns" jazz? Who owns it? In my experience, mostly in Chicago, in the last few decades the small labels that have kept the music documented and the clubs and concert presenters that have presented the music are hardly villains out to make fortunes by stiffing musicians.

Martin Williams in 1974 remarked that, after African-Americans, first Jewish and second Italian musicians were the most frequent backgrounds in jazz. Still true?

Not true---in the sense that it belongs to the world now. It's exciting that different and diverse places are using improvising and whatever forms native to their cultures to make their own music. They were inspired by us but now they are growing up. Some, probably many---since Americans are so godamn arrogant---preferred their own from the jump and never needed us. But musicians internationally don't want to play like 2nd-rate Americans anymore. I think the future of jazz or whatever it ends up being called is in good hands there, even though myself I'm happy to find little wrinkles in the SOS. For me the American Songbook ain't done yet and I'm still excited by it. I also think that, despite many people doing excellent work here, the US is not the center of jazz or 'creative music, anymore.

As far as the US and this great gift to the world: maybe it's just time to let go? It's like being a parent and the kid grows up and into the world. Are you the kind of parent that says 'bon voyage and I'll always be here for you' or are you gonna be pissed because Baby grew up and left the nest?

So the short answer: perhaps true once, in 1974 or whenever, not now IMO.

Edited March 6, 2012 by fasstrack

[JSngry]

Are you the kind of parent that says 'bon voyage and I'll always be here for you' or are you gonna be pissed because Baby grew up and left the nest?

As long as they get to the point where they don't ever have to ask for money (and by god, I know that day will come...), I'm like, hey, go forth, don't get arrested, don't get trapped, and above all else, sleep where you live.

[fasstrack]

Are you the kind of parent that says 'bon voyage and I'll always be here for you' or are you gonna be pissed because Baby grew up and left the nest?

As long as they get to the point where they don't ever have to ask for money (and by god, I know that day will come...), I'm like, hey, go forth, don't get arrested, don't get trapped, and above all else, sleep where you live.

And 'don't marry a shiksa---or you're excommunicated'.

Sorry, couldn't resist. It's the other guy's fault for lobbing softballs. He's the instigator

[Pete C]

There's been a historic lack of any real "sense of ownership" of the music by its players, and that will inevitably lead to frustration into bitterness into...wherever.

The lofts and musician-run labels of the '70s constitutes a golden age, IMO, contrary to the dominant Marsalis-Burns narrative.

[JSngry]

There's been a historic lack of any real "sense of ownership" of the music by its players, and that will inevitably lead to frustration into bitterness into...wherever.

The lofts and musician-run labels of the '70s constitutes a golden age, IMO, contrary to the dominant Marsalis-Burns narrative.

Word. You might still be broke, but you're your own broke.

[JSngry]

And 'don't marry a shiksa---or you're excommunicated'.

Apropos of your kids getting married...as nerve-wracking as the teen years can be, I don't know that there's anything more nerve-wracking than one of your kids coming home with somebody and having to pray to ANYBODY's god that this is not "the one"...

My daughter actually asked me one time when she was, like, 12 or so, "Dad, is it ok to date for me somebody who's not the same religion as us?" (this coming after we'd not been to church for about 4-5 years...go figure...it must be Texas...)

I don't know what that means, I really don't. Give me the guy's name.

She gave me a name. Yeah, he's a good kid, good family, good character, nice guy, hell yeah it's ok. Good choice!

"Well....uh....it's not him...."

You see these gray hairs? Yeah....

[fasstrack]

And 'don't marry a shiksa---or you're excommunicated'.

Apropos of your kids getting married...as nerve-wracking as the teen years can be, I don't know that there's anything more nerve-wracking than one of your kids coming home with somebody and having to pray to ANYBODY's god that this is not "the one"...

My daughter actually asked me one time when she was, like, 12 or so, "Dad, is it ok to date for me somebody who's not the same religion as us?" (this coming after we'd not been to church for about 4-5 years...go figure...it must be Texas...)

I don't know what that means, I really don't. Give me the guy's name.

She gave me a name. Yeah, he's a good kid, good family, good character, nice guy, hell yeah it's ok. Good choice!

"Well....uh....it's not him...."

You see these gray hairs? Yeah....

Much as I like children I'm glad I don't have any. Hard enough just raising tunes....