Geoff Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Jazz often suffers the misfortune of having certain artists canonised, leaving the vast majority in the dark to the mainstream public. Most people even those not interested in Jazz, at least know who Louis Amstrong was, and most I dare say may even know Miles Davis and possibly John Coltrane. The Jazz 'Canon', has in my opinion a negative effect on people first getting into jazz. For much time in the 'conservative' jazz world, it is thought that one must first 'study' the Jazz canon before progressing into the more avant-garde jazz recordings. However, in my opinion this is what destroys jazz, I believe that there should be no Canon, and although I like Miles Davis, John Coltrane and other Canonised jazz musicians, there are a lot of unmentioned jazz musicians that are just as good, if not better than the 'main few'. This thread is dedicated to some of the artists, and recordings that I believe deserve to be as respected and acknowledged as 'Kind of Blue' or 'A Love Supreme'. Both of these albums, are just jazz albums, and they aren't isolated cases of genius. Sure they are wonderful albums, but it doesn't mean that they are the very best jazz albums ever. In fact I would encourage people to delve into the deep end, right at the beginning. Forget about 'set' introductions. There are many ways to arrive to one destination, rather than just one. What I am meaning to say is that some people might think on listening to their first jazz album (whether it be Kind of Blue, A Love Supreme, Sachmo's Hot Five or any other canonised jazz album) and come on the miscomprehension that the sound of these particular albums is what jazz overall sounds like. In reality jazz music is a vastly diverse genre, and representing it with just a few albums could never cover the full spectrum. In this thread, I wish to examine some of the lesser known, underappreciated, neglected jazz albums that have been made. As well as covering albums by so called 'Canonised' jazz musicians, that have been outcasted (is this even a word?) from their main output because it may sound slightly different or be on a smaller label than their 'major works'. I have over 20 albums in mind for this thread, however I feel I can only do justice by talking about one album at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Mal Waldron - The Quest I have chosen 'The Quest' as my first album to discuss. I have chosen it because I believe it offers much in terms of both Mal Waldron's unique compositional skill and style as well as the excellent playing of Waldron and his sidemen for the date. The album is completely comprised of Waldron originals and is a true showcase of his composition. The focus of the compositions vary, while 'Status Seeking' could be considered a 'hard-bop' tune, 'Warm Canto' which features Eric Dolphy on 'ordinary' b-flat clarinet (instead of his usual bass clarinet) sounds almost like the music of pastoral british classical composer Gerald Finzi. The addition of cello (played by Ron Carter) also adds to the almost classical atmosphere of the tune. Still further more Waldron explores other areas, including the soulful 'Warp and Woof'. The final track is none other than 'Fire Waltz', a tune that Eric Dolphy's band (which included Waldron) would play and record at the Five Spot just a few weeks after recording this album. Perhaps it is 'Fire Waltz' that is closest in conception to the music of Thelonious Monk. Mal Waldron's musical technique was even at this relatively early time, greatly influenced by Monk's unique 'stop and start' and 'percusive' technique. Waldron later in his career was one of the most avid of Monk's disciples, and along with another Monk disciple Steve Lacy would often play his music in concerts. Yet it isn't just the compositions that make this album as unique and successful as it is. The performance of the band members are just as remarkable. The band featured a somewhat unique line-up, including a a young Ron Carter playing Cello. A instrument outragiously under-used in jazz music. Ron Carter's cello playing is perhaps (with Dolphy's playing) the most remarkable and unusual characteristic of the album. Ron Carter both plucks, and bows his cello to create a sound that is quite foriegn to the jazz world. It is most unfortunate that the Cello was as unused as it was in jazz, for as exampled in this album it had the potential to be a remarkable instrument used in a jazz context. The solos that Carter plays, especially on the fast paced tunes like 'Status Seeking' the cello becomes almost like a guitar in tone. Eric Dolphy is the other key member of the band. His influence was so strong that for a period the album was reissued under his name not Waldron's. Dolphy's tone is perhaps the most unique in all of jazz music, he is instantly recognisable, and has no contemporary counterparts, that even sound remotely like he did. Indeed unlike John Coltrane, Charlie Parker and other saxophonists, he had no imitators, his unqiue tone, rapid flow of ideas, often shrill bursts of sound has been unmatched. His playing on this album is particularly interesting, and it is fruitful to hear the contrast between his playing and the more conservative, Booker Ervin on this date. Booker Ervin plays with much zest and although he is perhaps overwhelmed by Dolphy, his playing is solid. The constant pulse behind much of the tunes are the two rhythm section members. Bassist Joe Benjamin, plays 'walking bass' throughout the album and although not a primary soloist does what is needed to provide a rythmic background and drummer Charles Persip is impeccable throughout This album recieves a 5/5 rating from me. It is indeed one of the most undervalued albums in jazz music. At least in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Geoff, are you declaring that this thread is to be dedicated to your list, so you can talk and talk and we can all say, "Please sir, may I have another?" This isn't the way a discussion forum works. How about starting things in a slightly more inclusive way, like "Undervalued Jazz Albums"? Then post your first one and invite others to join in. You know? Give and take? Discussion? Otherwise, I suggest you start your own blog if you want to favor someone with your pronouncements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Dan, this is certainly not restricted to Geoff's own favorite underrated albums - while I am still awaiting your BFT disc, remembering your proposals for Album of the week (which did discuss "The Quest", by the way, Geoff! Make a search to find it), it seems you would have lots of underrated albums to talk about. Why not just go ahead? I would certainly enjoy and listen! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I'm sorry, Ubu, and I didn't wish to come across as the forum scold. But Geoff made no effort to invite the members of the community to add their own "undervalued" albums. It seems to be all about him. He doesn't ask for our additions and he doesn't even invite commentary. He apparently expects us to sit back and wait and read his musings. Sounds like material for a blog to me. If I list undervalued jazz albums, it will be in an inclusive thread that invites people to join in. Not a "look, read and learn" lecture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Geoff, this album has been discussed in the Album of the Week forum link). I don't have such a hard opinion as Dan does, but the AotW forum does provide a nice stage for such reviews/discussions. A whole lot of albums have been discussed already, take a look at this thread, there may be some of them you were thinking of including in your discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Not a "look, read and learn" lecture. so it would be nothing like your posts in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Exactly! Mine are just friendly suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I'm sorry, Ubu, and I didn't wish to come across as the forum scold. But Geoff made no effort to invite the members of the community to add their own "undervalued" albums. It seems to be all about him. He doesn't ask for our additions and he doesn't even invite commentary. He apparently expects us to sit back and wait and read his musings. Sounds like material for a blog to me. If I list undervalued jazz albums, it will be in an inclusive thread that invites people to join in. Not a "look, read and learn" lecture. Not a problem, Dan (here I would add a laughing smiley, if I could add smilies, which I can't, at the moment). I understand your reaction, and how it can "evolve" out of Geoff's post. As I get it, ALL discussions here ARE OPEN, never mind what those starting a topic imply. couw, I mentioned the AotW thread of "The Quest" (which is an absolutely fantastic album, and one of my favorite Dolphy, Ervin and Waldron albums), but I cannot add links/images/smilies etc. to my posts right now, got some problem (I started a topic about this in the forum discussion section (I would add a link, if I could ;-)... ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 couw, I mentioned the AotW thread of "The Quest" (which is an absolutely fantastic album, and one of my favorite Dolphy, Ervin and Waldron albums), but I cannot add links/images/smilies etc. to my posts right now, got some problem (I started a topic about this in the forum discussion section (I would add a link, if I could ;-)... yeah, yeah, yeah. Just admit you were too lazy to look up the link. Too occupied drinking coffee again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 DAMN! I thought the guy was going to point us to good deals online. Oh well... So anyway, this "Quest" band, this Mel Walton guy with Eric Dailey and Booker Irving, are they touring? Maybe if they had a video I'd know who they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonym Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I think the reactions on this thread are a bit over the top. I'm only new to this forum, so I am unaware of the board etiquette. I knew that a lot of people (since this is a jazz forum) would know about the albums that I will write up on, and this is by no means a one way thread. More of a call and response thread. I take the time to write a review on an album, and you tell what you think of it, etc etc I just think what some people have said has been pretty mean on someone just trying to pick out some of his favourite under-recognised jazz albums. Alas, this forum can be tough and is one of the major reasons I don't come back very often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Anyhow, I thought I'd continue and write up another thing Herbie Nichols - The Complete Blue Note Recordings How can I ever do justice when writing about Herbie Nichols music? After justice has been proponed, for so many years. Justice, defined as 'The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor'. Sadly no justice was ever upheld during Nichols' lifetime, and even to this day justice to his music has yet to be fully served. Perhaps I can at least provide some info, and a stern recommendation for Nichols music, in this way I can attempt to at least bring some justice to Nichols, however slight. This is my aim. Herbie Nichols was born in 1919, only 2 years after the birth of Thelonious Monk. He was dead from leukemia in 1963, which coincidently was the year that Monk made the cover of Time magazine. Perhaps the statements is clear example of the great injustice of music, both Monk and Nichols were brillaint composers, however while Monk finally achieved his 'fame', in contrast Nichols cruel fate was to be unrecognised till after his death, forced to play at strip joints and behind r & b bands for his working career. Why did Monk break through, while Nichols failed to? Perhaps it was Monk's outrageous behaviour that drew attention to him, we live in a society where the personality of an artist/musician can draw as much attention than his/her music. Thelonious Monk with his vast collection of hats, his in performance dances was perhaps more of a 'showman' than Nichols and perhaps this was his key to his 'mainstream' success (almost certainly unintentional on Monk's part). If you look at the jazz artists that peirced the strong vale of mainstream media practically each had a certain demeanour that drew attention to thim. Miles Davis, and his grainy cool voice, sunglasses, Miles was the epitomy of cool. Charles Mingus, with is burning temper, Amstrong with his handkerchief. John Coltrane's philosophical stare (evident on the cover of A Love Supreme). I believe these characteristics were some of the reasons why these musicians become 'the mainstream' in the eyes of many of the critics of the time and especially the media. These comments are not meant to suggest that those artists mentioned were lesser composers and musicians, oh no, all I suggest is that they were more easily accepted by the music press for these certain appealing human aspects. Herbie Nichols in contrast was outside what the mainstream press expected. Herbie Nichols was writer, and one of the first person to publically praise the work of Thelonious Monk. Way back in 1943 when Nichols was a columnist for a periodical entitled 'The Music Dial' Nchols wrote an review of Monk's music, this stands as perhaps one of the first reviews of Monks music. Nichols even at this early time indentified Monk's unique 'rhythmical melodies'. He was also an avid listener of 20th century classical music, and he often name-checked artists such as Bela Bartok and Dmitri Shostakovich as major influences. Perhaps Herbie Nichols' shy nature, and 'square' attitude was partially to blame for him be unrecognised. He was in contast to many of the musicians in the mid 50s. He didn't use herion, he didn't drink excessive amounts of alcohol. Singer Sheila Jordan states that 'Herbie was very reserved - not unfriendly, but very dignified and very shy'. Here is a picture I scanned from my copy of the Complete Herbie Nichols. Nichols was not competely unknown, he was somewhat of an underground hero to many inspiring artists. None more so than a young trombonist that had played with Nichols just before Nichols death. This young trombinist was called Roswell Rudd. Indeed Roswell Rudd is the perhaps one of Nichols staunchest disciples. He has recorded a series of albums entitled 'The Unheard Heribe Nichols' for the CIMP label, spanning of several discs the albums feature some compositions that Nichols was never abel to record himself. Earlier, Roswell teamed up with Steve Lacy (who is perhaps the person that has performed the most Monk compositions than any other musician other than Monk himself), Mengelberg and Bennink on 'Regeneration' on the Italian label Soul Note. Nichols influence continues, and other 'followers' include Misha Mengelberg, Geri Allen, Archie Shepp and even Cecil Taylor. I'm almost up to 1000 words, and still havn't written anything on the actual music on this album so I better get to describing what the 'whole fuss' is about. However I have no time to finish it tonight, so this thread is TO BE CONTINUED If you feel that this material has already been covered, and it probably has, feel free to tell me to stop contributing to this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Why are you here, Geoff? To talk with us or to us? You might get a conversation started if you try to talk with us instead of at us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) I think the reactions on this thread are a bit over the top. I'm only new to this forum, so I am unaware of the board etiquette. I knew that a lot of people (since this is a jazz forum) would know about the albums that I will write up on, and this is by no means a one way thread. More of a call and response thread. I take the time to write a review on an album, and you tell what you think of it, etc etc I just think what some people have said has been pretty mean on someone just trying to pick out some of his favourite under-recognised jazz albums. Alas, this forum can be tough and is one of the major reasons I don't come back very often. Geoff - post whatever you want, however you want. If someone doesn't like the way you frame a discussion they are free to say so, just as you are free to write in whatever way is comfortable to you. It is refreshing to hear from someone who is passionate about an album. There are no "rules" for starting a discussion, so keep the reviews coming. Two great choices, so far. I have the Mal Waldron disc and need to listen to it more than I have. I will hang my head and shame and admit that I have no Herbie Nichols in my collection. This is one of those sets I have meant to pick up for a long time and just haven't gotten around to it. Edited January 21, 2004 by John B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Dye Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) Jeez, Dan! Do the words CONTROL FREAK mean anything to you? Lighten up a bit, eh? Edited January 21, 2004 by Jim Dye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 I think the reactions on this thread are a bit over the top. I'm only new to this forum, so I am unaware of the board etiquette. I knew that a lot of people (since this is a jazz forum) would know about the albums that I will write up on, and this is by no means a one way thread. More of a call and response thread. I take the time to write a review on an album, and you tell what you think of it, etc etc I just think what some people have said has been pretty mean on someone just trying to pick out some of his favourite under-recognised jazz albums. Alas, this forum can be tough and is one of the major reasons I don't come back very often. Geoff - post whatever you want, however you want. If someone doesn't like the way you frame a discussion they are free to say so, just as you are free to write in whatever way is comfortable to you. It is refreshing to hear from someone who is passionate about an album. There are no "rules" for starting a discussion, so keep the reviews coming. Two great choices, so far. I have the Mal Waldron disc and need to listen to it more than I have. I will hang my head and shame and admit that I have no Herbie Nichols in my collection. This is one of those sets I have meant to pick up for a long time and just haven't gotten around to it. thanks John. ----- Dan, I'm sorry but I think you are over-reacting. I like to contribute to other threads that are more open. However I thought it would be a novel idea to present my individual prospective on jazz music on this forum. I don't mean to be arrogant or anything like that. This is just my opinion on jazz, and you are free to comment on any of the albums I talk about. I would not complain if you did a similar thread. Again my apologies is this thread disturbs you, but that doesn't mean I have to stop writing for it. I want to practice my writing skills, because I want to write reviews for a jazz magazine or some music magazine when I get older (I am only 19). So this is a form of pratice (and why the thread may be construed to be individualistic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minew Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Geoff, Please ignore the schnauzer and continue posting. He'll chase you for a couple of blocks, yapping loudly, and then go back to his yard, the politics forum. (Suprise: he's a republican.) If you try shoo him, the yapping will get louder; he will likely bark something with the word PATHETIC in it. The rest of us are enjoying your well-written and thoughtful posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) I want to practice my writing skills, because I want to write reviews for a jazz magazine or some music magazine when I get older (I am only 19). So this is a form of pratice (and why the thread may be construed to be individualistic). Well, that's different, then. I wish you'd have said so from the beginning. Just know that the board as a whole tends to be more "conversational" in tone, and your initial posts seemed to be more "exhibits" than invitations to discussion. Also, discussion is more likely if you start a seperate thread for each album. Post your impressions, get responses, and take it from there. Just some constructive criticism, no offense intended. And apologies for my wiseass comment about Waldron et. al. I thought you were some pompous ass lecturing us Philestines rather than a kid working on getting his writing chops together. Wrong of me to assume that, but that WAS the first impression I got. Take that for what it's worth. Finding that fine line between going over your audience's head and "talking down" to them is part of the maturation process of any communicative discipline, and it's never in the same place twice. The problem with not knowing is that you don't know. You're showing uncommonly "advanced" tastes for a 19 year old. Carry on! Edited January 22, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Geoff, This forum operates much like life... when you first come in, you have to suffer some knocks and punches. If you believe in what you're doing you'll continue it in spite. Rough n' tumble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Geoff, Please ignore the schnauzer and continue posting. He'll chase you for a couple of blocks, yapping loudly, and then go back to his yard, the politics forum. (Suprise: he's a republican.) If you try shoo him, the yapping will get louder; he will likely bark something with the word PATHETIC in it. The rest of us are enjoying your well-written and thoughtful posts. Minew, Blow it out your ear. My reaction is exactly the same as Jim's, I just expressed it a little stronger. Have any idea how pathetic it is you bring up political affiliations? Why don't you declare I'm a racist and complete the circle? ***************************** Jim (Jsngrey) expressed precisely what I wanted to express. If Geoff had explained his reasons as he did above, then everything would have been cool. So, I apologize for the tone of my posts but I think the reaction was a fair one. Geoff, welcome and good luck with your writing. I'd really encourage you to go to the Album of the Week forum because that will give you many chances to hone your writing/reviewing skills, provided you have the records that have been or will be selected. And I second Jim's comments that you have uncommon taste for a 19 year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 (edited) post whatever you want, however you want. If someone doesn't like the way you frame a discussion they are free to say so, just as you are free to write in whatever way is comfortable to you. It is refreshing to hear from someone who is passionate about an album. There are no "rules" for starting a discussion, so keep the reviews coming. well said. Edited January 21, 2004 by montg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rat Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Anxious to see the Herbie Nichols review. He's probably best known now for not being recognized enough rather than for his music. But anyhow, please do carry on. Things will sort out, I suppose. But as a former editor, let me suggest: dictionary definitions as a last resort only. --eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 if you want to make friends fast, start a "BABE" thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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