fasstrack Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Www.haaretz.com (search subject-article ran on July 12 I cant link directly from a cell phone) This is an intelligent discussion of things on my own mind-especially since being pretty much made, almost at gunpoint, to re-connect with my Brooklyn middle-class Jewish roots. It really asks if this cathartic and often hostile (toward Christians mostly) form of japing self-defense is doing mose harm than good these days. Notice, too, how the author is death on Woody Allen, but giues Sasha Baron Cohen a pass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Can't find the article. What search terms should one use? I tried humor, then Jewish humor, then Woody Allen, then Sasha Baron Cohen -- no luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'd like to read the article but can't get past the moneywall. Here's an interesting article about Allen though. Unfortunately nothing about self-deprecating humour. But brings up an issue discussed here before. The ethics of separating the art from the artist. No moneywall - here is a link. My link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I can't even get to this side of the money wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Can't find the article. What search terms should one use? I tried humor, then Jewish humor, then Woody Allen, then Sasha Baron Cohen -- no luck. Try july 12 I'll try to get to a PC later and send the link. Also a google search:self-deprecrating jewish humor woody allen was how I found it. It's one the 1st hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 http://www.haaretz.com/news/is-self-deprecation-killing-jewish-comedy-1.277679 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) How did ya do that? My usual trick of getting to the restricted article and copying and pasted directly into google didn't work? Actually this was the one I found. My link Edited July 20, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 He's a giant of time wasting, that's how. And a shining example to us all.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 How did ya do that? Also a google search:self-deprecrating jewish humor woody allen was how I found it. It's one the 1st hits. https://www.google.com/search?q=self-deprecrating+jewish+humor+woody+allen&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs First one on the list, actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 http://www.haaretz.com/news/is-self-deprecation-killing-jewish-comedy-1.277679 An interesting article. It reminds me of Blood Ulmer's comment about rap 'the whole worlds got the Blues, the rapper's got the Blues so bad he can't even sing anymore'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 So is the stuff harmful or medicinal? Probably there's no easy answer. The 'goy' jokes given in the piece are a backlash perhaps against centurys of Christ-killer assignations. They sure as hell won't be mending any fences though. My own take on this is more focused on the artistic self-doubt of Allen, and musicians like Lee Konitz who combine a nervous restlessness with a de-valuing of their unique contribution in comparison to others. 2nd rate Bergman or Fellini after these monumental romantic comedies in the case of Allen. Konitz is a strange case: he had something really fresh and original as far back as the late 40s. But the self-doubt that would IMO later undermine his work was evident from almost as far back. There's a vid on youtube w/Art Farmer where he's playing great stuff, quoting the Bird he'd studied and making it grist for his imagination. But he's SO tortured and hangs his head like bagged quarry after. I hear self-doubt and lack of trust to commit in his records from the 50s too. He'll play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Pt. 2: and immediately back off, seemingly consumed by over-thinking. It's also fascinating to hear b/c it's real. You want a human, not an icon of unflappable macho confidence. Lee had his own Fellinis later on (Wayne Shorter) and also to me let overthing become so upfront (ironically claiming the opposite, that he was making his mind blank to really improvise). The jury's out, I guess. But obviously no artist or plumber of any ethnic stripe can lay claim to self-doubt. But it's a major Jewish motivator-to the point of eye roll-worthy stereotyping. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Actually self-deprecating humour is an Australian characteristic too. Case in point - l remember hearing an interview with an Australian author living in the US - who was trying to make the point that Americans tend to take self-deprecation literally. She related how she told someone she was an author - and the person responded 'have you written anything I'd know", to which the author replied 'Oh I have a book out but nobody read it' - to which the other person replied 'Oh my, I'm really sorry no-one read your book". The book was, in actuality. well received, just not a mega-blockbuster seller. As far as the Allen-Fellini thing, I don't think that is actually self-deprecation - as much as Allen making humorous light of the distance between the great European Existential film tradition (and his youthful desire to emulate it), and the reality of his own humbler mundane origins. Kinda like, if Jackson Pollock had ambitions to emulate Velasquez's Las Meninas. In the end they both (Pollock and Allen) settled for the most honest, relevant 'form and content' they could. Although by the time Allen got to making his non-ironic takes on the European tradition, he had come a long way to narrowing the gap. Edited July 20, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I think he idolized these guys (Bergman worship was the impetus for the 'serious' films) to the point that he ruined a beautiful thing. The funny thing is the tragic world-view was there in Annie Hall, Manhattan, even some earlier films like Love and Death-but in his own voice. I like that he goofed on this conundrum in Stardust Memories. It's like knew some of his old fans would hate it-so he struck pre-emptively with that joke about 'older, funny movies'. The joke was on him, though, b/c now when the subject comes up everyone says they 'prefer his older, funny movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I think he idolized these guys (Bergman worship was the impetus for the 'serious' films) to the point that he ruined a beautiful thing. The funny thing is the tragic world-view was there in Annie Hall, Manhattan, even some earlier films like Love and Death-but in his own voice. I like that he goofed on this conundrum in Stardust Memories. It's like knew some of his old fans would hate it-so he struck pre-emptively with that joke about 'older, funny movies'. The joke was on him, though, b/c now when the subject comes up everyone says they 'prefer his older, funny movies. Yes Bergman, my bad. Then again... My link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedwork Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) I think he idolized these guys (Bergman worship was the impetus for the 'serious' films) to the point that he ruined a beautiful thing. what are you referring to w/ ruined? his career? some particular of his own films? i don't think he ruined anything through his love of Bergman and other french and italian directors. i think he was inspired and influenced by them. i'd have more to say but i don't really know what you referred to/meant by "ruined..." ...now when the subject comes up everyone says they 'prefer his older, funny movies. i prefer his older films mainly because i think they're better films, and not just the funny ones. some of my favorites are the serious ones. and to be sure, i read the article posted/linked to from this thread on "self deprecating humor." wow was that a horrible article. so many problems to point out and tear down in there that i'll have to wait 'til tomorrow to post on it here because it'll take a bit of time and focus. i'm sure y'all can't wait... oh shit... was that "bet y'all can't wait" a self-deprecating remark on my part? or was it too aggressive and mean-spirited? does it mean i'm a self-hating jew? or worse, simply not funny? would freud prescribe me an eight ball and have me sleep off my aggression? when would i be able to sleep after snorting the blow? maybe i should call sarah silverman and see what she thinks? oh that's right... silverman says, "Deconstruction is the enemy of comedy." and i agree w/ her... until tomorrow... Edited July 21, 2012 by thedwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I didn't mean that he ruined his career. I thought it was a shame that he let himself be cowed by thinking these guys work was heavier or more serious than his. He had his own voice and didn't trust it. If that's not self-deprecating... Usually the modeling/derivation come early, on the way to self-discovery. He did the opposite: he was there already and lost faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Crimes and Misdemeanors is a later film that was very dark and serious, yet looked, was acted, directed, and written like nothing else but a Woody Allen film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I don't get why this was published in Haaretz on 7/12/12 when the dateline on the story says it was published in The Forward on 6/10/09. Unless I misunderstand something, that's one heck of a recycling job. What next, the Declaration of Independence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) I don't get why this was published in Haaretz on 7/12/12 when the dateline on the story says it was published in The Forward on 6/10/09. Unless I misunderstand something, that's one heck of a recycling job. What next, the Declaration of Independence? Just guessing here, but when I tried to search for the article I typed in Woody Allen in the Search engine instead of the whole article title. From the hits I got - re-Haaretz/Woody Allen - it seems there has been a recent attempt in Israel to raise money to entice Allen to visit and make a movie there. This seems to have generated some debate/articles, so perhaps the paper decided to run this older article to keep it going, or provide more context for the readers. I could be wrong though. Edited July 22, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 But the writer has his claws on Allen's throat, hardly a way to charm him into coming. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) The first I heard about the Allen/movie in Israel campaign was from this thread, so it looks like it was up and running early this month. I suppose the Haaretz has had a whole series of articles since then. Here is another opinion piece from somewhere else. Gives some context to the campaign. My link I thought this (from the article) an interesting observation about Manhattan What's true about Manhattan, apart from its inherent Freudian prophecy (in 1991, the 56-year-old Allen would begin a relationship with his 21-year-old stepdaughter Soon-Yi Previn), is the way it perfectly captures the nuances and behaviour patterns of its chosen New York set. What's not true about it is how it fails to capture any other New York set. And this about what Allen might offer the 'New York' Israelis, Which may be why Israeli officials are attempting to persuade the legendary director to shoot one of his next films in the land of milk and honey. If there's any great Jewish filmmaker in the world right now who can be counted on to hone in on the subtleties and minor peccadilloes of the Israeli urban class, it's Allen. Anyone else - David Cronenberg, Roman Polanksi, Darren Aronofsky - might venture too far into the Israeli underclass, or (God forbid) the territories. Edited July 23, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Maybe if they keep chipping away they'll find every man has his price. Exhibit A: Scenes From a Mall... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I think reducing Woody Allen to "a generic Jewish comedian" misses the point. Besides being a genius, he's an individual with many different influences, both philosophical and cultural, in his work. For example, when the Forward article (the Ha'aretz article is originally from the Forward) describes him as "a dismal icon of despair," that's more a reflection of his philosophical influences, from Kant and Schopenhauer to Bergman to the birth of the atomic bomb; there's nothing particularly Jewish there. Most obviously to this point, the article, which was written in 2009, has as its starting point the movie Allen had just released, the misanthropic "Whatever Works." Allen's biggest movie to date, "Midnight in Paris," which was released last year, is sunny and upbeat, and would seem to contradict most of the points of the article. Also, since Allen doesn't particularly identify himself as Jewish (associate with Jewish causes, live in Jewish neighborhoods, or in any major way culturally identify himself as Jewish), it's hard to see why one should predominantly label him as Jewish instead of, say, a New Yorker, an intellectual, or a leftist. Finally, one needs to point out that the article is reacting to Allen's public persona, which is what sells. We cannot know what he is like in his private life. As for the rest of the article: there are harsh comedians, and there are many other types of comedians. I myself don't like the cringe-worthy types of comedians (not just Larry David and Baron-Cohen, but also Ben Stiller, Steve Carell, Will Farrell, etc.), but I'll leave it to others to figure out who is all Jewish, half-Jewish, or not Jewish among them. If these comedians are popular, it's because this style of comedy is currently popular. But to take just one example, I thought "American Reunion" (the latest sequel to "American Pie") was a wonderfully funny and sweet movie, and the creators seem to be Jewish (I never asked them). How would the Forward writer shoehorn this movie into his thesis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 a New Yorker, an intellectual, or a leftist. He's all of those (not sure how politically engaged he really is, though), but the Jewish underpinning of his "vision" is essential and undeniable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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