mjzee Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 a New Yorker, an intellectual, or a leftist. He's all of those (not sure how politically engaged he really is, though), but the Jewish underpinning of his "vision" is essential and undeniable. I don't know; I, for one, would deny it. Sure, he grew up in that milieu, but what in "Paris" or "Match Point" is particularly Jewish? Yes, Match Point is about guilt, but so was a lot of Bergman's work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I haven't seen either, but individual films would be a red herring anyway, IMO. You have to look at the trajectory of his career/oeuvre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Dining with Lindsay Lohan. What could be more Jewish than that? Edited July 23, 2012 by Pete C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 MJZee: Yes, Woody Allen has diverse influences (let's not forget a major one, Bob Hope, not to mention Chaplin and Keaton) and Jews-in art, philosophy, or comedy, by no means hold a patent on a tragic world view. But the core of Woody Allen's comedy style, schtick, world-view, mannerisms all are classicly Jewish. He nailed all this down in Annie Hall. I think it would be folly and or denial to posit otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Match Point is a superb movie. Worth seeing. I think the other much lauded recent films tend to be more variations on Woody's 'old man's fantasies'. I found some of them like Vicky Cristina Barcelona funny for all the wrong reasons. I can only account for the late career popularity of Midnight In Paris because it might appeal to any romantic and escapist yearnings of a younger generation - completely detached from any critical distance from early 20thC heroic Modernist bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I forgot Midnight in Paris the minute I left the theater. Phoned in craftmanship starring an annoying Woody stand-in. (And I'm sounding more like Fred Hersch every minute). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedwork Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) a lot of the article is quoted here for reference. the chunks in italics are excerpts from Ivry's article. my responses appear beneath these excerpts in blue. please excuse the length... Is self-deprecation killing Jewish comedy? This article doesn’t seem to be at all about self-deprecation in comedy. Oops… likely the editor’s fault and not the Benjamin Ivry’s… In "Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconscious" (1905), Sigmund Freud observes that a strict superego - or the conscience that punishes misbehavior - results in a correspondingly aggressive jest. As we all have found, whether at school or in the workplace, the harshest superego suppresses laughs entirely. In practical comedic terms, jokes get meaner and meaner until they stop being funny altogether. Imo, that’s all just so much psychobabble gobbledygook. “Look at the jargon I can use and the name-dropping I’m capable of. I’m smart, huh?” but that shit's comparatively unimportant in this context… For decades, Allen, now 73, has presented himself as a dismal icon of despair, and in a recent interview he tells a fawning Argentine journalist that "life is suffering," whining with characteristic joylessness… For decades, audiences have applauded this culture of complaint. He doesn’t “present himself” as anything. Anyone who knows anything about Allen knows that his outlook on the human condition and nature has been rather… shall we say ‘not so rosy’ ever since he started doing films (and maybe earlier). Ivry is using the phrase “present himself” to make it seem like Allen is some sort of poseur, or worse liar, by saying what he does about his outlook. That’s horseshit. Maybe Ivry’s one of those financially well-off, self-helpy, new-agey jackasses who thinks that other people don’t have the right to be sad or depressed because it impinges upon his personal happiness. Vomit… Even Allen’s reported "true love" of jazz clarinet is expressed publicly in desultory sour-toned performances in a Dixieland jazz band cheered on by star-struck punters at concerts worldwide. Self-deprecating humor turns to self-deprecation, and then just general deprecation. Huh? What in the world is the Ivry saying in this above graph? There’s no quote from Allen supplied here about music/clarinet so I honestly have no real clue as to what he’s talking about. Does he mean Allen shouldn’t say anything negative about his own playing? If so, everyone on this board knows only the most completely clueless writer would ever expect that of any musician. Plus, note his placing “true love” in quotes. Is he saying Allen doesn’t love jazz clarinet? What is this guy’s problem? Allen sued clothing company American Apparel, for using his likeness on billboards without his consent… Allen accused American Apparel of engaging in a "despicable effort to intimidate" him by claiming that by marrying Soon-Yi Previn, the adopted daughter of his ex-wife Mia Farrow, Allen damaged his own potential for endorsements. Of course, no one disputes that Allen did marry his ex-wife's adopted daughter, but bringing up the matter in the context of this lawsuit ticked off the comedian considerably. Charney, a Montreal-born Jew, has been involved in some controversies of his own, yet Allen revealed a fatal lack of self-awareness in not merely complaining about the unauthorized use of his image, dressed as a Hasidic rabbi in "Annie Hall," but also calling American Apparel advertisements "sleazy," "adolescent" and "infantile." Allen's own vulnerability to similar criticisms following the Previn scandal seems to have slipped his mind entirely. Well, as usual, more likely than not herein lies the rub. This guy just loves stick it to Woody so he can show all his readers how morally superior he is to the guy who is simply a disgusting, “sleazy” letch. And this type loves this situation because they feel they have carte blanche due to the generally negative public opinion of older men marrying/dating younger woman. Notice that he calls Farrow Allen’s “ex-wife” twice in two successive sentences. Farrow and Allen were never married. But he knows that. This just gives him a way implying that Previn was Allen’s adopted daughter without actually writing it. Now that’s “sleazy.” Also, the Ivry takes no space to comment, even a small sentence, on the advertisers’ lack of ethics/illegality in using Woody’s image without his permission. It was not only his image, but an image of him playing his most famous role, Alvy Singer in Annie Hall. From the huffington post: “American Apparel lawyer Stuart Slotnick said the company plans to make Allen's relationships to actress Mia Farrow and her adopted daughter Soon-Yi Previn, whom Allen married, the focus of a trial scheduled to begin in federal court in Manhattan on May 18.” Now that’s even more sleazy! Unfuckingbelievable. Yes, Woody’s decision to go with Previn was controversial and can easily be argued to have been a bad decision. even amoral if you wanna go there. But Ivry here is simply bringing it up as an excuse to insult Allen. What does it have to do w/ self-deprecation or aggression in comedy? Nothing, that’s what. Sleazy… But then, Allen is a famous failure in psychoanalysis, which he finally dropped after 30 years of therapy, around the very time he began his relationship with Previn. John Baxter's "Woody Allen: A Biography" (Da Capo Press, 1999) points out that "like Catholic confession, Allen's form of analysis let the penitent go free to sin again." Ahh, back to the psychobabble again. Clever… and no surprise that Ivry would choose Baxter’s Bio of Allen as his source. From library journal: “…a fair amount of Baxter's material is marginal, second-hand, or overly familiar, particularly coverage of the Soon-Yi Previn scandal. This likely results from Baxter's being denied access to Allen and most of his colleagues.”Ivry should read Eric Lax's bio of Allen instead. or better yet, check out Bjorkman's Woody Allen On Woody Allen. highly recommended for anyone interested in Allen's moviemaking process/thoughts. No one doubts Allen's continued abilities to crank out gags like the classic "I don't believe in an afterlife, although I am bringing a change of underwear." Really? That’s the example Ivry gives us to display Allen’s genius? This guy has no idea what is going on. Indeed, Allen's films, as critics and even some fans have observed, have increasingly become black holes of futile despair, "sour, dispirited, almost vindictive" as Terrence Rafferty wrote in a still-pertinent review of "Husbands and Wives" (1992). More evidence that Ivry is clueless; and worse, intentionally misleading his readers. As written, the above sentence is likely to be read as meaning a majority of critics disapproved of Husbands And Wives. This is not the case and Ivry knows it. It’s widely praised as one of Allen’s best films (I certainly think it is) and it has a score of 100% on rottentomatoes. If Ivry had substituted “me and my friend Terrence” in place of “critics and even some fans” above, at least it wouldn’t’ve been sleazy. Just ignorant. Such male stars as John Cusack, Kenneth Branagh and Michael Caine are puppetlike stand-ins, straining to imitate Allen's own herky-jerky speech, uncontrolled gestures… More bullshit. Cusack and Caine do no such imitating and the two films they appear in are two of Woody’s best. However, Ivry is unfortunately right about Branagh. It was painful to watch. It ruined what may have otherwise been a good picture. I recall reading an interview w/ Woody about it and he stated that when they started shooting and he saw how Branagh was interpreting the material, he took him aside and told him he thought he didn’t need to try and “do Woody.” Branagh told Allen that he felt he should keep playing the character the same way and Woody was intimidated by this Shakespearean actor and let him go on as he'd wanted… The same physical mannerisms that made Allen a successful stand-up comedian make him an awkward, amateurish actor, and most of the actors for whom he writes - with the exception of rare majestic talents like Martin Landau and Jerry Orbach in "Crimes and Misdemeanors" - make the capital error of now trying to mimic him. “…most of the actors for whom he writes… make the capital error of now trying to mimic him.” What movies/actors is this guy watching? Clueless… …David, a native of the Sheepshead Bay area of Brooklyn, specializes in finding comedy in the trivialities of life, with a ferocity that puts off critic Lee Siegel in The New Republic, who terms David's choleric fits "merely the anger of frustrated entitlement." I would agree that much of David’s shtick could be called the “anger of frustrated entitlement.” That’s actually an excellent phrase (what a surprise it's not Ivry's). And in lesser hands that anger may simply translate into annoying complaining. But imo David’s 'frustrated entitlement' is often hysterical. Should comedy writers restrict their writing to characters we can liken to the Dalai Lama? Now pay real close attention to this next one: Even HBO's "Curb" Web site, amid paeans of praise, offers an occasional dissent: "A bunch of screaming Jews apparently ad-libbing; it is not funny." Not only is Benjamin Ivry clueless and annoying when it comes to Woody Allen and seemingly comedy in general - he is apparently also a plagiarist. 5 years before Ivry wrote this piece for The Forward, James Kaplan write this on David and “Curb” for The New Yorker: "And amid the rapturous postings about “Curb” on HBO’s Web site (“the best show to hit tv in a long time”; “Larry David is the funniest, most brilliant, and most talented man on television, or possibly in entertainment”) lie voices of dissent: “Please retire this tedious program . . . a bunch of screaming jews apparently ad-libbing it is not funny.” Of course it’s not verbatim, but there’s too much here for Ivry not to have gotten this from Kaplan: he uses the same quote, he refers to the quote as “amid” just like Kaplan did, and he also refers to the quote as a “dissent” just as Kaplan did. In addition to plagiarizing, Ivry leaves out the fact that this quote he refers to is a “post” on the HBO website; seemingly from some jackass w/ anti-semitic tendencies. But the way Ivry’s written it, it sounds like it could be part of HBO’s network content or a review from some established publication. Wow. This guy is something else… When standup comedian Susie Essman shrieks profane insults at David's character in "Curb," she and other actors provide the superego, the out-of-control conscience that punishes his misbehavior. hey y'all! I'm Benjamin Ivry. Mind if I drop some more psychobabble jargon bullcrap? Here ya go! i'm like all smart 'n stuff... David's comedy derives from situations, such as when he invites a sex offender to a Seder, rather than from Allen's carefully honed and polished jokes. Ivry’s cluelessness is seemingly never-ending. Allen’s comedy doesn’t derive from situations? While Allen is certainly known for his great one-liners this in no way means that his comedy is not “derived from situations.” Not by a long shot. sorry to sound like a broken record here, but anyone who sees Allen as simply someone who cranks out jokes just doesn't know what they're talking about. Ivry’s vision seems to extend exactly one inch beyond his nose; and no further. and by the way, all this defense of Allen is coming from someone who grew up on Woody Allen movies starting from the age of 10 in '75 on through... however i also am one of his ardent fans who believes his films started to become somewhat repetitive, nearly recycled somewhere in the late 90's. i remember the experience of watching Celebrity in the theater as being a very strange experience indeed. until that point i'd seen every Allen film in the theater when it came out and had hugely enjoyed every single one. i didn't enjoy Celebrity and didn't know what to feel. it was truly an odd moment for me. and this is not to say that his movies beyond that point are bad. definitely not. but something un-nameable has changed, and he has definitely also been recycling jokes and scenarios. even a film like Match Point, which was perfectly fine, can be seen by someone like myself as a latecomer's Crimes And Misdemeanors. it's a weird thing. but we'll always have Paris... As for all the stuff written on Sacha Baron Cohen by Ivry in this article, I’ve already been labeled an anti-semite on this board. Getting too into what’s brought up in this article as relates to Cohen would likely give folks here a chance to pile on again. that's not worth it. not for this article… Edited July 24, 2012 by thedwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedwork Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) I think reducing Woody Allen to "a generic Jewish comedian" misses the point. Besides being a genius, he's an individual with many different influences, both philosophical and cultural, in his work. For example, when the Forward article (the Ha'aretz article is originally from the Forward) describes him as "a dismal icon of despair," that's more a reflection of his philosophical influences, from Kant and Schopenhauer to Bergman to the birth of the atomic bomb; there's nothing particularly Jewish there. Most obviously to this point, the article, which was written in 2009, has as its starting point the movie Allen had just released, the misanthropic "Whatever Works." Allen's biggest movie to date, "Midnight in Paris," which was released last year, is sunny and upbeat, and would seem to contradict most of the points of the article. totally agreed here. though i don't know that anyone here has referred to Allen as 'generic' in this thread. ...since Allen doesn't particularly identify himself as Jewish (associate with Jewish causes, live in Jewish neighborhoods, or in any major way culturally identify himself as Jewish), it's hard to see why one should predominantly label him as Jewish instead of, say, a New Yorker, an intellectual, or a leftist. i'd have to disagree w/ you here though mjzee. though you may be right about Allen not necessarily identifying w/ any jewish 'causes,' neighborhoods, or 'culturally,' there's a reason why it's called "personal identity." donating to the JNF isn't the only way to personally identify yourself as, or personally feel, jewish. and having seen most of his films at least once, and the ones from 1975 through the mid 90s anywhere from 2,3, or more times, i can tell you that there are many, many references and situations that are specifically jewish. and i don't mean a mother instilling guilt or some behavior/activity that is generically perceived by the general public to be typically jewish. i mean scenes w/ rabbis, bat mitvahs, characters overtly and specifically talking about their jewishness, etc... it's prevalent. seeing Woody Allen as a jew is not problematic. but if jewishness is the only thing you see when you watch Woody Allen, then you need a new pair of glasses... Edited July 24, 2012 by thedwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) For someone who has based so much of his output around characterisations of neurosis and psychoanalysis, I don't think it's unfair to use psychoanalytical language in an article attempting to unpack Allen's oeuvre. After all, to many people, Allen's work will always be elitist psychobabble anyway. Although perhaps the author has been reading too much Zizek. I forgot Midnight in Paris the minute I left the theater. Phoned in craftmanship starring an annoying Woody stand-in. (And I'm sounding more like Fred Hersch every minute). Glad I wasn't the only one. Lot of people like this film though. Edited July 24, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Hey, I'm an antizionist flaming atheist and I identify as Jewish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Well, that's my point...does Allen identify himself as Jewish, or does he see it more as an accident of birth and fodder for comedic material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedwork Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Hey, I'm an antizionist flaming atheist and I identify as Jewish. right on... Well, that's my point...does Allen identify himself as Jewish, or does he see it more as an accident of birth and fodder for comedic material? i don't see those 3 things as mutually exclusive. human beings often have a lot going on within themselves. the bright ones anyway, imo... Edited July 24, 2012 by thedwork Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Well, that's my point...does Allen identify himself as Jewish, or does he see it more as an accident of birth and fodder for comedic material? What's the difference, as far as the product is concerned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Well, that's my point...does Allen identify himself as Jewish, or does he see it more as an accident of birth and fodder for comedic material? What's the difference, as far as the product is concerned? If Allen doesn't identify himself as Jewish, and has no Jewish content in his work (here I'm referring to his movies over the last few decades), then should he be characterized as a Jewish artist? This was the point of the original Forward article: that Allen's being Jewish somehow translates into his being a crabbed, dour person producing misanthropic work. I'm saying: whatever Allen's work may or may not be, why attribute it to being Jewish? There doesn't seem to be a cause-and-effect. I'll try an analogy: Paul McCartney came from Liverpool. Can one look at his work of the last 30 years or so and say "this is a Liverpool artist"? One has seemingly nothing to do with the other. (And before anyone asks, yes, I know he produced a "Liverpool Oratorio", but c'mon - who's listened to it?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 but c'mon - who's listened to it? I watched the live broadcast on PBS. For about 12 minutes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 but c'mon - who's listened to it? I watched the live broadcast on PBS. For about 12 minutes... I bet your mind started wandering...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Jewish folk don't have Ole and Lena jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 'where it will go-o-o' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 'where it will go-o-o' Ha. Yes. Apart from the feat of getting through 12 minutes of a McCartney 'Classical piece", Fixing A Hole was what I was actually thinking. But funnily, when I typed 'wandering' into my post, I thought I better check the spelling - so I typed it into google (as I usually do if I don't have a spell checker), and the google search option prompter had as first option..... wait for it ......'wandering jews' I thought that was funny, considering the topic of the thread and Pete C's earlier post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 OK, I guess this is as good a point as any to post an off-topic but enjoyable little film: Hava Nagila (The Movie) - Sample Reel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Fixing a Hole... We're SO goddamn old... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Fixing a Hole... We're SO goddamn old... I feel older every minute. My hips, my knees, my back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted July 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Oy, I'm NAUSEOUS ALREADY!! DON'T GET ME STARTED... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 8 years from now, will she still need me, will she still feed me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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