Jim Alfredson Posted February 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 I read my sisters comics, mainly Superman and Batman. That was about it for me. My dad said he had a copy of Superman 1 as a kid along with about every other first edition comic that would be priceless nowadays. His mom threw them out when he went into the army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 The reason the 4th mode of melodic minor (lydian dominant) is called the overtone scale is because it includes the first dozen or so notes of the natural overtone series. It's sort of an arbitrary designation, since once you get past the 5th or 6th overtone the natural overtones start getting real out of tune, at least with respect to an equal-tempered piano keyboard. Thanks BW, I am quite familiar with the overtone series (I'm a guitarist, after all!). My hesitation about calling the Lydian/Dominant scale the "Overtone scale", is that it's simply not quite accurate to say, or helpful in the conception of it. This is an absolutely fascinating topic for discussion and study, though, and one that I think all musicians should check out. And by that I mean, all musicians should be able to sing the overtone series, and be able to sing (or play, if they play a variable pitch instrument) in just intonation. You mentioned that the notes of the overtone series are out of tune with an equal tempered piano. That's because the twelve tones of equal temperment are an out of tune approximation of the pure harmonies of just intonation. This allows us to modulate freely to any key, but the analogy has been made with electric light: extremely useful, but it separates us from the natural cycles of the sun and moon. As an example of just how submerged these harmonies are, consider that entire African villages can sing nightlong rituals beautifully in tune, but Americans can't sing Happy Birthday at a restaurant in tune. An example of a note played in just intonation against equal tempered accompaniment can be heard in Miles' solo on Freddie Freeloader. Check out where he plays the seventh degree on the IV chord. You will notice it's quite a bit flat from the piano's note. That's because he's playing the seventh partial of the overtone series (BTW, don't confuse the term "partial" with "degree". The two do not always match up). It's hipper than hell, but there's a real art to making it work. 7/4 knows about this stuff too, so hop in there buddy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 You mentioned that the notes of the overtone series are out of tune with an equal tempered piano. That's because the twelve tones of equal temperment are an out of tune approximation of the pure harmonies of just intonation. That's right. This allows us to modulate freely to any key, but the analogy has been made with electric light: extremely useful, but it separates us from the natural cycles of the sun and moon. As an example of just how submerged these harmonies are, consider that entire African villages can sing nightlong rituals beautifully in tune, but Americans can't sing Happy Birthday at a restaurant in tune. Nice! Are those your own or are they from Harmonic Experience (it's been a long time and I never finshed reading it anyway). 7/4 knows about this stuff too, so hop in there buddy! You're doing fine! I'll be back later with some other examples..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 An example of a note played in just intonation against equal tempered accompaniment can be heard in Miles' solo on Freddie Freeloader. Check out where he plays the seventh degree on the IV chord. You will notice it's quite a bit flat from the piano's note. That's because he's playing the seventh partial of the overtone series I'd call it a harmonic, but lately I'm finding that calling it a harmonic confuses the snot out of folks new to the subject of Just Intonation. BTW: the intervals in JI are named as ratios. The seventh harmonic is known as 7/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 This allows us to modulate freely to any key, but the analogy has been made with electric light: extremely useful, but it separates us from the natural cycles of the sun and moon. As an example of just how submerged these harmonies are, consider that entire African villages can sing nightlong rituals beautifully in tune, but Americans can't sing Happy Birthday at a restaurant in tune. Nice! Are those your own or are they from Harmonic Experience (it's been a long time and I never finshed reading it anyway). They're from Harmonic Experience. Those books changed my musical life, I tell ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 (edited) Here's why the whole "#9" business works for me, at least as it comes to a dominant, offered without hesitation, reservation, or apology. A little background first, if I may. I took a year of "jazz theory" at NT, but blew off the second year because the applications of it I saw around me were not relevant to the way I heard or played. Math in music is like Blair's Death Sauce in chile - just the right amount works wonders, but too much, and you want to either throw it out or throw it up. Still, I wish now that I had had hung in there with it, if for no other reason than to get an easier handle on some stuff. but that's life... Ok - if I'm playing a Bb (if I call it a Bb when "theoretically", it's an A#, that's because for me, and a lot of other tenor players I know, Bb "resonates" mentally better as an "image" than A#) over a G7, I'm usually hearing it moving upwards to a B, downwards to an Ab, upwards to an Eb, or in some direction that's going to eventually land on a G, a B, a D, or an F in the process of getting to the C tonic chord (assuming that that's what's up with the tune, which for the purpose of this discussion is what I'm doing). I'm feeling it as a note that is taking the place of the "diatonic" 9th, the A. I might even get to the Bb from the A, or go to the a on my way somewhere else. But the point is, I'm thinking in terms of the MELODY of my solo - how it's getting shaped along the way in terms of the shape of the line, the color of the harmony, and how all this shit's gonna fit together rhythmically. The Bb is going to function as an altered 9th, not a flatted third, in the overall scheme of tension & resolution. UNLESS... I'm taking that moment in time to say something bluesy or funky or wahtever, in which case I'm thinking of it as the b7 of the I chord (yeah, I play "bluesy" I shit over V chords. I'm old school that way). OR... Sometimes I'll get a bug up my butt and treat a V7 chord like a I7, and say my "blues" shit in THAT key, and then take the whole thing back into the tonic key when the time comes. That's the kinda shit that drives the "schoolboys" nuts, but, hey, they play their way, I play mine. They make the money, though, so I guess the joke's on me... To come to some sort of a point, the way I play is based on feeling the shape and color of the line first and foremost. So if I call that chord a G7#9, it's becasue that's the function that Bb/A# is serving for me in the context of the tune - a "movable 9th". Then again, EVERYTHING about jazz is "movable" to me - harmony, pitch, rhythm, tone, you name it. If it's gonna be used by me, I gotta be able to "move" it to accomodate the moment. If I can't, I'd rather not use it, or at least confine it to the parts (and even then...). To me, and to follow up on something Paul said earlier, that's where "jazz theory" has been so horribly abused, at lest in my opinion. If it were up to me, I'd not teach a whit of it to anybody until they demonstrated an ability to create interesting melodies, however "rough", without being able to "explain" the math of why they did what they did. Otherwise, you're putting the cart before the horse, I think, and you end up with the truly depressing sight of whiz-kids everywhere being able to tell you every chord/scale relationship in the book, and being able to machine-gun a steady stream of notes that go in and out of the chord in all the "right" places, yet none of it with any semblance of spontanaeity or soul. There's no "there" there, because it's all backasswards. Sing me a song, not an equation. Although there's a place for equations, it's not until later in the game that it should be examined. Make those equations be about something besides the numbers, if you know what I mean. Theory should come AFTER the fact, not before it. Theory should EXPLAIN what happened, not dictate WILL happen. This is something I firmly believe, and based on what I hear way too much of these days, I'm equally firmly in the minority. It's all about priorities, what gets stressed in forming one's perspective, and I fear that a great deal of "jazz education" has stressed numbers over meaning because it's easier to get an institutional (read: $$$ and "career security") thing happening that way. Damn near ANYBODY can do the math, that's physical & mental muscle memory more or less, but once you start stressing inner challenges of the non-concrete variety, well, your potential market share drops considerably! Sorry, that was a bit long. Edited February 13, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Otherwise, you're putting the cart before the horse I think what you're saying, Jim, is that one should put the heart before the course. I like playing the bluesy I7 over the V7 too. And that's just plain wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Actually, I'm about ready to put the horse before the hearse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 An example of a note played in just intonation against equal tempered accompaniment can be heard in Miles' solo on Freddie Freeloader. Check out where he plays the seventh degree on the IV chord. You will notice it's quite a bit flat from the piano's note. That's because he's playing the seventh partial of the overtone series That same seventh partial is also really flat on trombone, to the point you have to use an alternate position to play it (it's an Ab) in tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Oh yeah, that whole thing about the "movable A" - that's why I don't get wigged out about the theory of how to spell the various altered 9ths, or the chords that include them, or the scales that include them, because they're all 3 (Ab, A, A#) usable as 9ths at any given time, so what difference does it make? A note only functions in relation to where it goes (don't look back!), and where it goes could be damn near anywhere, depending on where YOU want to take it. Is a Bb over an E7 chord a b5 or a #11? It depends - if you're using it to say some blues, it's most likely a b5, because that's the language. If it's gonna be a #11, you gotta do something ELSE with it, because #11 is a different part of speech than b5. The theory has no real meaning detatched from the intent of the moment, which, hopefully, varies from, uh, moment to moment. But fuck me, listen to some Ornette. He's got ALL this shit figured out far better than I (or from what I can tell, even HE) can say in words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upright Bill Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 (edited) This allows us to modulate freely to any key, but the analogy has been made with electric light: extremely useful, but it separates us from the natural cycles of the sun and moon. As an example of just how submerged these harmonies are, consider that entire African villages can sing nightlong rituals beautifully in tune, but Americans can't sing Happy Birthday at a restaurant in tune. Nice! Are those your own or are they from Harmonic Experience (it's been a long time and I never finshed reading it anyway). They're from Harmonic Experience. Those books changed my musical life, I tell ya! Joe, I ordered Harmonic Experience last night based on your messages (despite you calling me a dummy ). Now you're saying "Those books." What are the other books? Edited February 13, 2004 by Upright Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGUD missile Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 (edited) To throw further fuel onto the harmonic analysis fire we've got going here .. ( pretty interesting stuff BTW ) I" ll toss in the following: when the three key pivot tones ( B, F, and A# ascending ) are played over a G bass note, you've got whachacallyer G7 9# chord .. the same three pivot notes over a Db bass ( now spelled Cb, F, Bb ) give you whachacallyer Db 7/13 chord.. and theoretically ( at least by a strring player, maybe a trombone player ) the B and the Cb would be played somewhat differently pitchwise.. dependidng upon the relation to the bass note. Thus bringing up the question of why ( when mathematically calculating the overtone series in one direction by sharps, the F# will have a difering number of vibrations, than a Gb calculated in the reverse direction ..this disparity was called the "comma" ,and they used to drive us crazy with this paradox in advanced theory classes ..( the same result would occur between B and Cb ) scratche yer head over that one! or just say fuck it ..and dig into some greasy blues Edited February 13, 2004 by SGUD missile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 ...dig into some greasy blues Well yeah, it's "greasy blues" if your career's ascending, but if it's descending, then it's "bluesy grease". That's what Dr. Ottman's books said, and I believe him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Then again, EVERYTHING about jazz is "movable" to me - harmony, pitch, rhythm, tone, you name it. If it's gonna be used by me, I gotta be able to "move" it to accomodate the moment. If I can't, I'd rather not use it, or at least confine it to the parts (and even then...). Does this mean it's okay for me to play that Gb chord with both a major and minor seventh in it (one on bottom, one on top) that drives Joe nuts? Little inside joke there. I play such a chord in one of our original tunes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free For All Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 But fuck me, listen to some Ornette. If I have to choose between those two things, I think I'd rather listen to some Ornette. ...even the lame violin-playing Ornette...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aftab Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Referring to the first chord discussed - G,B,F,Bb(or A# if you must) - I sometimes labeled this a Ghx - standing for "G-Hendrix" chord - think Purple Haze - and my guys got it. I took 3 semesters of Jazz Improv in college - in the last class we took all the modes, scales, whatevers, and superimposed them over each other - and we came up with a chromatic scale. I said to the instructor (Jack Fragomeni if any of you have heard of him), "So basically, you can play anything over anything?", and he said something like 'Yeah, as long as you do it in the right spot' Whenever I'm blowin' I play a lot of major/minor/pentatonic stuff mixed in with some whole tone scales to give it that out-sound - nothing too crazy, but when you do it in church it's over the top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Joe, I ordered Harmonic Experience last night based on your messages (despite you calling me a dummy ). Now you're saying "Those books." What are the other books? Mathieu wrote two other fine books before Harmonic Experience. Homepage Highly recommended. Even for dummies. If Uncle Skid hadn't busted me, you'd be none the wiser.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted February 13, 2004 Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Then again, EVERYTHING about jazz is "movable" to me - harmony, pitch, rhythm, tone, you name it. If it's gonna be used by me, I gotta be able to "move" it to accomodate the moment. If I can't, I'd rather not use it, or at least confine it to the parts (and even then...). Does this mean it's okay for me to play that Gb chord with both a major and minor seventh in it (one on bottom, one on top) that drives Joe nuts? Little inside joke there. I play such a chord in one of our original tunes... Brrrrr.... :rsly: One of these days I'm going to up and change the melody there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2004 Hell no, dude... it's funky! It's supposed to be that way. Kind of like Jimmy Smith playing a B in "Got My Mojo Working" in the chords over the C7 (the four chord). It's FUNKY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 This allows us to modulate freely to any key, but the analogy has been made with electric light: extremely useful, but it separates us from the natural cycles of the sun and moon. As an example of just how submerged these harmonies are, consider that entire African villages can sing nightlong rituals beautifully in tune, but Americans can't sing Happy Birthday at a restaurant in tune. Nice! Are those your own or are they from Harmonic Experience (it's been a long time and I never finshed reading it anyway). They're from Harmonic Experience. Those books changed my musical life, I tell ya! Cool. I think I'll be taking a flip through that book this week end. I need a FAQ for my web site and I think I'll illustrate some of my points with quotes. I was thinking of comparing Just vs. evil...uh, Equal to having sex with or without a condom. But I'm not too sure that would be very responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 Thus bringing up the question of why ( when mathematically calculating the overtone series in one direction by sharps, the F# will have a difering number of vibrations, than a Gb calculated in the reverse direction ..this disparity was called the "comma" ,and they used to drive us crazy with this paradox in advanced theory classes ..( the same result would occur between B and Cb ) scratche yer head over that one! Which comma? The Pythagorean comma or some other one like the septimal comma? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 An example of a note played in just intonation against equal tempered accompaniment can be heard in Miles' solo on Freddie Freeloader. Check out where he plays the seventh degree on the IV chord. You will notice it's quite a bit flat from the piano's note. That's because he's playing the seventh partial of the overtone series (BTW, don't confuse the term "partial" with "degree". The two do not always match up). It's hipper than hell, but there's a real art to making it work. There's a Pharoah Sanders Impulse where Cecil McBee nails the 7th harmonic (partial) in a bass line. It's no mistake, he repeats it over and over again for a few minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 (edited) I ordered Harmonic Experience last night based on your messages (despite you calling me a dummy ). Now you're saying "Those books." What are the other books? On the Sensations of Tone by Herman Helmholtz (Dover) is an ancient classic, but it's more of a reference work for me. Genesis of a Music by Harry Partch is another interesting classic. Partch was also a composer and instrument builder, so he gets into more than just tuning theory. Check his music out too, very strange, but cool! The book that I got after those two is where I made my breakthrough and made the most sense to me was The Just Intonation Primer by David Doty. http://www.justintonation.net/primer1.html An Just Intonation explanation by Doty: http://www.justintonation.net/whatisji.html The Just Intonation Network web site One note (well two): 1. expect a long delivery time 2. don't bother with the membership, "newsletters" are published when he gets his act together. Edited fer screwy html code! Edited February 14, 2004 by 7/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upright Bill Posted February 14, 2004 Report Share Posted February 14, 2004 If Uncle Skid hadn't busted me, you'd be none the wiser....  and you wouldn't have to sit in the seat behind the column at the Newport Jazz Festival concert Monday night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 I know I'm late to this party, and I didn't get the chance to read all of the thread so please forgive me if someone pointed this out already. The reasons that the chord is definitely and unquestionably a G+9 chord are as follows: 1) The context. As someone else said, it totally depends on the context. If you are in a C minor blues, and you play a chord with G as the root with B natural and F natural, it is ALWAYS going to be heard as the dominant V chord. It's the tritone you see, the western ear will pick out the tritone and interpret it as the 3rd and the 7th. This means that the third of the chord is major, making the other note A#, not Bb. In other words, the third of the chord is what gives the chord it's quality (major/minor). A chord can either be major or minor. The ear accustomed to tonal music ALWAYS chooses one over the other. If the ear hears the chord as major (dominant, augmented) then the ear is interpreting the third of the chord as a major third, even if both thirds are technically in there. Sometimes the line gets blurry, as different ears interpret things differently, but there's not much room for interpretation in a blues. 2) Even outside of context the chord would probably be called a G+9, again, because of the tritone. Ever since Bach's era the tritone resolution has become the strongest resolution present in the western tonal system (strong enough for anyone, everyone to instantly recognize it no matter how little they listen to music. The only context I can think of that would defeat the tritone (and I really don't know that much so that isn't saying anything) is an atonal context, in which the chord wouldn't be named anything it would just be a collection of tone clusters. In reality though, everyone is right. The note is both the #9 AND the minor third. The way we name it has more to do with understanding the FUNCTION of the notes - the role they are playing in the intricate dance of tonal music - rather than having an arbitrary name for the note itself. WHEW! Man, I can't play worth crap, but I'm sure good at what my theory prof used to call "mental gymnastics". Heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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