How far do you go with a student?

[Upright Bill]

I teach, among other things, classical guitar. I have a student that has been with me for about a year and a half. He's learning only classical (some students expand into other areas, some don't study classical at all).

He reads nearly flawlessly the entire length of the fingerboard in almost any key. He loves to play. He recently gave me one of the greatest complements I've ever recieved as a teacher, with a tear in his eye told told me that he was able to play for his mother the last three days of her life and he thanked me for giving him that opportunity.

However, he can't play in time. He can count and clap his way through any piece I put in front of him. Every piece he play sounds great if you don't know the piece, he plays with great emotion and energy. But you can't play a duet with him.

However, he 68 years old and is filling his lifelong dream of playing classical guitar. He'll never play professionally.

I feel obligated to push the timing issues but I don't want to kill the dream.

What would you do?

Edited March 20, 2004 by Upright Bill

[Alexander]

It sounds like this guy has a great deal of natural ability and a real willingness to do what it takes to learn, which is wonderful. That takes up about half the work of teaching right there. If you don't have to motivate the student, then all you're really doing is instruction, which is easy when someone is talented and interested in what you have to say. I wouldn't worry about turning him off by pushing the time issue. If he's as self-motivated as you say, I think he'll see it as a challenge. Remember, everybody has to work towards something. If he's got the talent and the motivation, I think he'll put in the work to make his performance even better.

[Big Wheel]

Is it possible that this problem is the result of a physical handicap? The way you describe it, this guy has no problem with the mental aspects of playing in time--he can count and clap the pieces. Maybe the problem is a weakening of fine muscle control, caused by his advanced age. From what I can tell, this can happen to even the best players...I've even heard it said about Elvin Jones in recent years.

[Dr. Rat]

I teach a bit, too, and used to a lot more (not music)

If this were a young person I would say you owed him a real go at bare competency in this area.

As this fellow is older, I'd say talk to him directly about it, find out whether he is most interested in gaining a broad overall competency (gaining which may interfere with his expressiveness temporarily) or whether he's willing to just treat tempo impressionistically and keep pursuing what he does well.

As far as what technique to use: I'd guess you'd have to start using material where melody and rhythmic structure correlate very strongly, and I think for this you might have to move away from classical guitar.

If you do this I think he'll be better able to hear how losing time distorts the line (and if I read you correctly, he has a gift for line).

I used to teach writing, and one of my techniques with young writers was to set their srengths off against their weaknesses: put them in a context where what they see and do well is directly impinged upon by what they do badly.

--eric

[JSngry]

Mention it to him, work with him on it, but given his age and his natural enthusiasm, don't dog him on it like you would a kid. If he gets even a minor breakthrough, he'll be filled with that much more joy. And if he doesn't, like I said, don't dog him on it, and stress all the other positive aspects that he does have going for him. He's playing (and enjoying it) for the purest reason of all, and that should be celebrated.

[Upright Bill]

Is it possible that this problem is the result of a physical handicap? The way you describe it, this guy has no problem with the mental aspects of playing in time--he can count and clap the pieces. Maybe the problem is a weakening of fine muscle control, caused by his advanced age. From what I can tell, this can happen to even the best players...I've even heard it said about Elvin Jones in recent years.

Its interesting that you mention a physical handicap. He has arthritis in both hands and one shoulder, I hadn't consider that as part of the timing problem.

I'm actually his second teacher, his first recommended that he play only electric guitar to avoid pain in his shoulder. I switched him to a classical guitar and worked on posture and correct technique and he's had no pain since.

I also switched him from Green Day to Fernando Sor (can you imagine telling a 68 year old retired doctor that he needs to learn Green Day tunes ).

[Upright Bill]

Mention it to him, work with him on it, but given his age and his natural enthusiasm, don't dog him on it like you would a kid. If he gets even a minor breakthrough, he'll be filled with that much more joy. And if he doesn't, like I said, don't dog him on it, and stress all the other positive aspects that he does have going for him. He's playing (and enjoying it) for the purest reason of all, and that should be celebrated.

I mentioned last week how much I enjoyed the energy that he fills the room with when he plays. The look on his face was what makes teaching worth the effort.

The joy you see on his face when he plays is so great that I don't want to spoil it.

[Upright Bill]

If this were a young person I would say you owed him a real go at bare competency in this area.

----snip----

If you do this I think he'll be better able to hear how losing time distorts the line (and if I read you correctly, he has a gift for line).

------snip----

--eric

If this guy were younger or had different goals I'd push him hard. If he were a kid I'd talk to his parents about music school.

I pride myself on my ability to teach time. I have developed a set of metronome exercises that set your internal clock to atomic accuracy or kill you in the process (ask Uncle Skid, he's one of the survivors). Every week when I assign metronome exercises he never gets to them in favor of the next piece.

On the other hand he's having a great time.

[Uncle Skid]

That's funny, Bill -- when I first read this thread, I immediately thought about your metronome exercises, and I was wondering if you had tried that with him.

You've already received a lot of good advice here, but I'd suggest that the fact that he favors working on the next piece as opposed to the metronome exercises is telling -- it may just be that he's not quite ready to really absorb or tackle such a daunting task. I remember getting quite frustrated with some of those exercises.

I recall some other material that you presented to me, and even though you may have felt I was ready for it, I didn't feel that way at that time. A year later, it started making more sense to me, and I was able to go back to it, and only then fully appreciate what you were trying to teach me.

If he's having a great time, don't sweat it. He's already come a long way in his musical education, and maybe he'll get to the point where he's "ready" to address his timing issues.

And if not, that's OK, too.

[Upright Bill]

That's funny, Bill -- when I first read this thread, I immediately thought about your metronome exercises, and I was wondering if you had tried that with him.

You've already received a lot of good advice here, but I'd suggest that the fact that he favors working on the next piece as opposed to the metronome exercises is telling -- it may just be that he's not quite ready to really absorb or tackle such a daunting task. I remember getting quite frustrated with some of those exercises.

I recall some other material that you presented to me, and even though you may have felt I was ready for it, I didn't feel that way at that time. A year later, it started making more sense to me, and I was able to go back to it, and only then fully appreciate what you were trying to teach me.

If he's having a great time, don't sweat it. He's already come a long way in his musical education, and maybe he'll get to the point where he's "ready" to address his timing issues.

And if not, that's OK, too.

That's interesting to hear you say that. The metronome exercise sets are hard and I reserve them for my more advanced students. Are you saying that the metronome exercises were frustrating or some of the other stuff? You seemed to breeze through the theory and soloing stuff with ease at the time. Your timing went to very good in a couple of weeks.

I had already decided to just let him enjoy the music but I was feeling unsure about the appropriateness of letting it slide. I asked the question here hoping for verification. I was sitting in Schuler's coffee shop late one evening with our trombone friend when a comment from him made me think that maybe I was too tough on my talented students. He was talking about a prof he had in college who sucked all of the fun out of every piece of music by making every piece an exercise (isn't that what college is for?).

[Uncle Skid]

That's interesting to hear you say that. The metronome exercise sets are hard and I reserve them for my more advanced students. Are you saying that the metronome exercises were frustrating or some of the other stuff?

Yes - the metronome stuff was particularly frustrating. I found it very difficult to play *anything* at 40 bpm, and the exercises where the only tick is on beat 2, 3, or 4 were also a good challenge.

I think you probably shouldn't let it slide too long -- maybe casually bringing it up every three or four weeks would be appropriate. It's such an important part of music that it really can't be ignored for too long.

The really great instructors/professors that I had in college all had one thing in common: they were *tough*. But, sucking all the fun out of a subject and being a tough, demanding instructor are not mutually exclusive.

[Jim Alfredson]

Yes - the metronome stuff was particularly frustrating. I found it very difficult to play *anything* at 40 bpm...

I just listen to Ray Charles a lot...

[JSngry]

I just drink a bottle of cough syrup.

[AfricaBrass]

As someone who was tone deaf and lacked rhythm (when I began playing guitar), I just want to say that I believe you should tell him about his problem with time.

I have found that I have been able to overcome these things by continuing to practice and play.

I've been playing for 20 years now, but now I have great pitch and have no problems with time.

I believe he can overcome this with practice.

:rsmile:

[7/4]

A cheap Strat, a drum machine and an endless shuffle gets me in the groove.

[maren]

Well, being over 50 and slightly arthritic has somewhat reduced my finger strength and smoothness -- among the reasons I'm not a working electric bassist anymore.

Nonetheless, I think making the EFFORT to play in time, and focusing on it, besides being artistically important, is actually physically therapeutic as well. Mentally too. Maybe you could devise some rhythm-focused lessons for this student that aren't quite as demanding as the metronome boot camp Uncle Skid survived!

I had two piano teachers before I was 18, and between them they whipped me into shape, time-wise. An element of humor was an important part of inspiring/motivating/ challenging me (opposite of "sucking all the fun out"). I still have the page from 3rd grade where my teacher, without saying a word, wrote COUNT! in 8-inch letters across the whole piece -- giving me one of those stern but wryly amused looks as she did it.

When I was 16, I was taking piano lessons from another teacher who also directed me as a singer (musicals, chorus) -- he had a way of pointing out the good with the bad that made me eager to conquer the bad:

"Your voice is so gorgeous, you're just wallowing in the tone -- and GETTING SLOWER AND SLOWER!"

"You have a great feel for bringing out the lowest notes of the left hand line when you're sightreading -- almost makes it hard to notice YOU'RE NOT PLAYING HALF OF WHAT'S WRITTEN!"

I think a student of any age can feel the love behind constructive criticism, when the love is there on the teacher's part.

Maybe you can find (write?) a piece that's technically readily within this guy's grasp where the whole challenge is to focus on the time -- phrases that vary rhythmically most of all? That might be a way to address the time issue. So that it's very focused -- "here's what I'm teaching you with THIS assignment" -- rather than bringing it up as a global deficit in his playing.

Edited March 24, 2004 by maren

[Upright Bill]

Maybe you could devise some rhythm-focused lessons for this student that aren't quite as demanding as the metronome boot camp Uncle Skid survived!

The metronome workout that Uncle Skid survived is for my more advanced students, not the new guys. There are a couple of other list members checking it out now as well. All have reported limited injuries.

[Chuck Nessa]

The metronome workout that Uncle Skid survived is for my more advanced students, not the new guys. There are a couple of other list members checking it out now as well. All have reported limited injuries.

You old softy.