Miles in France 1963 & 1964

[Stefan Wood]

4 hours ago, mhatta said:

Personally, I feel that George Coleman seems somewhat inhibited or self-conscious in Miles' band. He displays his monstrous playing in live performances with Wynton Kelly at the Left Bank Jazz Society and at Ronnie Scott's in London, but in these performances, the drummers are more conservative. Perhaps he was not well suited to Tony Williams' rhythm conception.

Agreed.

[John Tapscott]

I always thought George's playing on this set was terrific.  Time for another listen, I guess.  

[JSngry]

It is terrific. 

But in terms of the history of that band, it was transitional..

Where they went with Wayne they couldn't have gone with George, but that's got nothing to do with him being or not being terrific, which he was.

[John L]

20 hours ago, JSngry said:

It is terrific. 

But in terms of the history of that band, it was transitional..

Where they went with Wayne they couldn't have gone with George, but that's got nothing to do with him being or not being terrific, which he was.

Yes.  But what if Miles had not hired Wayne and kept George until the end of his acoustic period.  Then I imagine that we would be talking about this as the great Second Quartet and a peak period for Miles.  

I listen to the quartet with George Coleman a lot.  First, Miles trumpet playing was consistently very strong at this time, preceding the increase in physical ailments that inflicted him after 65.  Second, the impact of Tony Williams on the music was still very new and fresh, which clearly inspired Miles.   On balance, I would say that a lot of Miles' greatest recorded trumpet playing was done with the quartet with George Coleman. 

[JSngry]

I think his best trumpet playing was with the Lost Quintet.

I also think that if Coleman had stuck around, Tony and Herbie might have left sooner than they did.

[Guy Berger]

On 7/3/2025 at 9:45 AM, JSngry said:

Miles didn't like Sam's playing. Simples as that. And objectively, I get it. Sam was pretty skronky. 

It’s funny because 1969 Wayne was more radical and skronky than 1964 Rivers.  Miles’s tastes clearly evolved over the intervening 5 years.

14 hours ago, John L said:

Yes.  But what if Miles had not hired Wayne and kept George until the end of his acoustic period.  Then I imagine that we would be talking about this as the great Second Quartet and a peak period for Miles.  

I listen to the quartet with George Coleman a lot.  First, Miles trumpet playing was consistently very strong at this time, preceding the increase in physical ailments that inflicted him after 65.  Second, the impact of Tony Williams on the music was still very new and fresh, which clearly inspired Miles.   On balance, I would say that a lot of Miles' greatest recorded trumpet playing was done with the quartet with George Coleman. 

Miles’s playing is certainly challenged by physical ailments in the Dec 1965 Plugged Nickel recordings, but was quite strong, often spectacular, from Miles Smiles through Live Evil.  1969-70 was his technical zenith as a trumpeter.

(OK, JSngry said it before me but it’s worth repeating…)

Edited July 10 by Guy Berger

[John L]

Technical zenith?  Maybe.   I am one of those who is particularly affected by Miles' trumpet playing on ballads and slow-medium tempo blues.   Miles' music during 1969-1970 was certainly spectacular, and I listen to it often.  But when I get in the mood to have Miles' trumpet penetrate my soul, I will most often reach for the decade of 1954-1964.

Edited July 10 by John L

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, John L said:

Technical zenith?  Maybe.   I am one of those who is particularly affected by Miles' trumpet playing on ballads and slow-medium tempo blues.   Miles' music during 1969-1970 was certainly spectacular, and I listen to it often.  But when I get in the mood to have Miles' trumpet penetrate my soul, I will most often reach for the decade of 1954-1964.

Belve it or not, what does that for me is the electric period wah-wah-as-plunger-mute.

[jazzbo]

I love Miles' playing pretty much throughout his leader years. . . its evolution is clear but at every stage it's very enjoyable. I think my favorite solo is from "In a Silent Way". . . . 

[Guy Berger]

10 hours ago, JSngry said:

Belve it or not, what does that for me is the electric period wah-wah-as-plunger-mute.

It’s a real shame that there was such a short overlap between “Miles at peak chops” and “Miles playing wah wah trumpet” because the combination on recordings like Live Evil was really, really good.

[JSngry]

What I find to also be a real shame is the under-noticing that the wah-wah was being used like/as a plunger mute. It seems like in a lot of accounts it's all just "electronics".

Back in the day, really back in the day, "plunger mute" and "wah-wah" mute were different muted used to the same ends. us

He loved him madly.

[Guy Berger]

23 hours ago, JSngry said:

What I find to also be a real shame is the under-noticing that the wah-wah was being used like/as a plunger mute. It seems like in a lot of accounts it's all just "electronics".

A lot of the received wisdom on post-1970 Miles is still really shallow, especially in mainstream jazz discourse

[JSngry]

They keep thinking/hoping it will disappear.