RIP Ozzy Osbourne.

[Holy Ghost]

13 minutes ago, sgcim said:

The next day I went to TSS and bought If's first album. They were even more obscure than Sabbath. Many years later (pre-internet ), I only met one other person who was an If fanatic. We were doing a week-long gig with Al Martino in Connecticut, and he was the bass player on the gig, and we drove up together. It turned out that he didn't even know of the existence of the first If album, so I invited him over my place, and sat there in shock, listening to their first album on Capitol.

 

This band, If?

Seems logical to me: Imagine a reunion tour, they can rename themselves "Then" and start a rock 'n' roll conditional! 😎

[felser]

If were a great group.  Not sure when I discovered them, but it was after they had disbanded.  

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Back in the 80's I used to occasionally listen to a Tommy Vance program on the BBC.  I forget what it was called but it was music "on the heavy side" as he would say.  In my view it was kind of lightweight musically but these bands often put on an impressive display of electric guitar virtuosity which could be enjoyable in and of itself, the tunes and lyrics largely simplistic and barely audible.  OK a lot of it was repetitive tricks and pentatonic cliches but it had a certain cocky majesty in its braggadoccio.  

I don't know if my tastes have changed over the last 40 years. I still find the occasional shredder exciting but when I went through several notable Black Sabbath tunes mentioned in the newspaper, and when I listened to the excerpts that Rick Beato played in the clip linked above, I was struck by how rudimentary, obvious, and unswinging it all is.  The combination of third-hand blues mixed with English music hall and camp satanism, hyper-masculinity blended vaguely with an ethos hinting at drag-queens - not that there is anything wrong with that - does little for me.  

[gvopedz]

Even the Alamo (San Antonio, Texas, USA) said goodbye.  I do not know if the weblink to the Alamo's instagram will work, so here is the statement from the instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMa6Z8lpERQ/

We at the Alamo are saddened to hear of the passing of legendary musician Ozzy Osbourne. His relationship with the Alamo was marked initially by a deeply disrespectful incident in 1982. This act profoundly and rightfully upset many who hold this site sacred.

However, redemption and reconciliation eventually became part of his history as well. In 1992, Ozzy personally apologized to then-Mayor Nelson Wolff and expressed genuine remorse for his actions. Decades later, in 2015, he revisited the Alamo grounds to learn and appreciate the site's profound history, openly demonstrating humility and understanding.

At the Alamo, we honor history in all its complexities. Today, we acknowledge Ozzy Osbourne's journey from regret to reconciliation at the historic site, and we extend our condolences to his family, friends, and fans around the world. May he rest in peace.

[Holy Ghost]

On 7/25/2025 at 9:28 PM, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Back in the 80's I used to occasionally listen to a Tommy Vance program on the BBC.  I forget what it was called but it was music "on the heavy side" as he would say.  In my view it was kind of lightweight musically but these bands often put on an impressive display of electric guitar virtuosity which could be enjoyable in and of itself, the tunes and lyrics largely simplistic and barely audible.  OK a lot of it was repetitive tricks and pentatonic cliches but it had a certain cocky majesty in its braggadoccio.  

I don't know if my tastes have changed over the last 40 years. I still find the occasional shredder exciting but when I went through several notable Black Sabbath tunes mentioned in the newspaper, and when I listened to the excerpts that Rick Beato played in the clip linked above, I was struck by how rudimentary, obvious, and unswinging it all is.  The combination of third-hand blues mixed with English music hall and camp satanism, hyper-masculinity blended vaguely with an ethos hinting at drag-queens - not that there is anything wrong with that - does little for me.  

FWIW, Tony Iommi's got chops. He talks in an interview (can't remember where or when, 1990's maybe?) that he really liked Pacific Jazz Records and cites Jim Hall and Joe Pass as influences. Influenced by Bach as well. I'll just skip over the usual Beatles talk, Ozzy had made clear the Beatles changed everything talk. 😊

1 hour ago, gvopedz said:

Even the Alamo (San Antonio, Texas, USA) said goodbye.  I do not know if the weblink to the Alamo's instagram will work, so here is the statement from the instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMa6Z8lpERQ/

We at the Alamo are saddened to hear of the passing of legendary musician Ozzy Osbourne. His relationship with the Alamo was marked initially by a deeply disrespectful incident in 1982. This act profoundly and rightfully upset many who hold this site sacred.

However, redemption and reconciliation eventually became part of his history as well. In 1992, Ozzy personally apologized to then-Mayor Nelson Wolff and expressed genuine remorse for his actions. Decades later, in 2015, he revisited the Alamo grounds to learn and appreciate the site's profound history, openly demonstrating humility and understanding.

At the Alamo, we honor history in all its complexities. Today, we acknowledge Ozzy Osbourne's journey from regret to reconciliation at the historic site, and we extend our condolences to his family, friends, and fans around the world. May he rest in peace.

Yeah, what he did there was totally disrespectful, and I think he was cited (not arrested) by the park police, but this was a period when Ozzy was totally blasted nearly every day and night (recall he snorted ants with Nikki Sixx, when on tour with Motley Crue, back in the mid-eighties).

[Holy Ghost]

1 hour ago, gvopedz said:

Even the Alamo (San Antonio, Texas, USA) said goodbye.  I do not know if the weblink to the Alamo's instagram will work, so here is the statement from the instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMa6Z8lpERQ/

We at the Alamo are saddened to hear of the passing of legendary musician Ozzy Osbourne. His relationship with the Alamo was marked initially by a deeply disrespectful incident in 1982. This act profoundly and rightfully upset many who hold this site sacred.

However, redemption and reconciliation eventually became part of his history as well. In 1992, Ozzy personally apologized to then-Mayor Nelson Wolff and expressed genuine remorse for his actions. Decades later, in 2015, he revisited the Alamo grounds to learn and appreciate the site's profound history, openly demonstrating humility and understanding.

At the Alamo, we honor history in all its complexities. Today, we acknowledge Ozzy Osbourne's journey from regret to reconciliation at the historic site, and we extend our condolences to his family, friends, and fans around the world. May he rest in peace.

Side story relating to the Alamo, is when I went there with my ex-wife and kids back in the late 90's, my younger daughter dropped her doll in the mote at the Alamo (and those carp are huge!) needless, I risked losing my arm to get it. Back at the hotel, when we checked out, she leaves the same doll in the hotel room, that I  almost lost an arm over. So, we call the hotel and have it shipped back home, only for her to leave it at a restuarant back home. That doll has a story to tell!

Edited 20 hours ago by Holy Ghost

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 hour ago, Holy Ghost said:

FWIW, Tony Iommi's got chops. He talks in an interview (can't remember where or when, 1990's maybe?) that he really liked Pacific Jazz Records and cites Jim Hall and Joe Pass as influences. Influenced by Bach as well. I'll just skip over the usual Beatles talk, Ozzy had made clear the Beatles changed everything talk. 😊

 

OK but when I listen to Black Sabbath I find nothing like Joe Pass or Jim Hall.  Iommi may claim them as influences but where's the influence?  Do you hear it?  Or failing that, name a cut where Iommi plays well, whatever style...  I'm willing to be convinced.

[Holy Ghost]

4 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

OK but when I listen to Black Sabbath I find nothing like Joe Pass or Jim Hall.  Iommi may claim them as influences but where's the influence?  Do you hear it?  Or failing that, name a cut where Iommi plays well, whatever style...  I'm willing to be convinced.

It's not overt, and clearly neither Joe Pass nor Jim Hall were metal heads, but if you listen to the instrumentals on the first three records, and Bill Ward is a terrific percussionist on these tracks, you hear hints; however, the interlude between Hole in the Sky and Symptom of the Universe tracks one and two on Sabotage is a terrific example:

 

 

[mjazzg]

Thank you for posting this, I haven't heard it in 45 years and I can hear why my teenage self loved it so much.

As to whether Iommi is a good guitarist, I think it's self-evident that he's a great heavy rock player, after all he's fundamental in creating the style, but if you don't like heavy rock guitar playing your never going to get it.

The instrumental interlude makes a convincing argument that he could indeed play well outside the genre.

That contrast from the interlude into the opening riff is pure musical theatre and genius.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

5 hours ago, Holy Ghost said:

It's not overt, and clearly neither Joe Pass nor Jim Hall were metal heads, but if you listen to the instrumentals on the first three records, and Bill Ward is a terrific percussionist on these tracks, you hear hints; however, the interlude between Hole in the Sky and Symptom of the Universe tracks one and two on Sabotage is a terrific example:

 

 

Well, I listened to the first and second tunes on there.  There was a little break in between with some acoustic guitar which sounded like a nylon string guitar or three.  Call me unimpressed!  If you think that is very good guitar playing I envy you  because there is so much good guitar playing out there which you can look forward to hearing.  The electric guitar sounds nice - authentically metal - but in my view is nothing much musically - simplistic pentatonic riffs and power chords. If this is the best you can come up with for Iommi's playing then I guess I need listen no further. The melody and singing on the first number are absolutely what I was talking about: throwaway repetitive melody and lyrics.

To each his own and if this does something for you, great!  Does very little for me.

[mjazzg]

Back in the mid to late 70s I thought Iommi was the guitarist for HM simply because he wasn't a shredder, he didn't relu on speed and endless arpeggios like some of the players who came in his wake. To me his playing is about presence, depth and heft but I'm no musician so can't give a technical analysis, just a listener and that does me just fine 

3 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Well, I listened to the first and second tunes on there.  There was a little break in between with some acoustic guitar which sounded like a nylon string guitar or three.  Call me unimpressed!  If you think that is very good guitar playing I envy you  because there is so much good guitar playing out there which you can look forward to hearing.  The electric guitar sounds nice - authentically metal - but in my view is nothing much musically - simplistic pentatonic riffs and power chords. If this is the best you can come up with for Iommi's playing then I guess I need listen no further. The melody and singing on the first number are absolutely what I was talking about: throwaway repetitive melody and lyrics.

To each his own and if this does something for you, great!  Does very little for me.

But repetition and simplicity aren't necessarily negative attributes. I suspect your conclusion is correct, this music is simply not to your taste, that's not a bad thing either.

But as this is a thread celebrating one of the universally accepted progenitors of the genre it's really not surprising it features lots of folk who hear otherwise.

Each to their own.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I suppose whatever music people were dancing to in high school burns a particularly deep impression in one's mind. But it is possible to overcome this sort of bias.  In my case the music that came out in high school was the Beatles, Stones, etc.  And I really liked all that very uncritically at the time but later on it occurred to me that quite a bit of what the Beatles put out, for example, was dreck.

Edited 9 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[greggery peccary]

4 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Well, I listened to the first and second tunes on there.  There was a little break in between with some acoustic guitar which sounded like a nylon string guitar or three.  Call me unimpressed!  If you think that is very good guitar playing I envy you  because there is so much good guitar playing out there which you can look forward to hearing.  The electric guitar sounds nice - authentically metal - but in my view is nothing much musically - simplistic pentatonic riffs and power chords. If this is the best you can come up with for Iommi's playing then I guess I need listen no further. The melody and singing on the first number are absolutely what I was talking about: throwaway repetitive melody and lyrics.

To each his own and if this does something for you, great!  Does very little for me.

Tony's playing was blues based and thus was typically rooted in blues and pentatonic scales and their various boxes/patterns. And you are right about to each your own, but I think that to dismiss Tony's pentatonic riffs as "simplistic" sells him short as a guitar player and reinforces the "snooty" label that is associated with many jazz aficionados. To cite players from other genres as influences need not mean that they can be overtly heard in copped licks or whatever. Django Reinhard was an influence because Tony lost the fingertips on his left hand in an industrial accident. Thus Reinhardt was an inspiration in helping Tony to believe, and figure out a way to overcome an obstacle which would have stopped most in their tracks.

Another pentatonic/blues based player who comes to mind is Johnny Winter. As with many jazz musicians, he had an endless well of licks and ways to twist and turn those "simplistic scales" into statements with as much value and feeling as those of Coltrane, Miles, et al.

I would also add that the technical proficiency that Tony and Johnny, and countless others, apply to their simplistic "simplistic pentatonic riffs" embodies it's own sort of magic. I don't know if you're a guitar player, if so I encourage you to sit down and learn a couple of their solos note for note.

On a separate note, listen to the album "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath." That record found the songwriting and arrangements operating at a different level. It's not likely to convert you but could certainly be worth forty minutes of your time.

In my opinion they are both monsters in their own right and we will clearly have to agree to disagree on this. 

Ah, the subjectivity of art and music.

Respectfully submitted. 

[Holy Ghost]

Yes, he speaks about Django in this interview.

 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 hour ago, greggery peccary said:

Tony's playing was blues based and thus was typically rooted in blues and pentatonic scales and their various boxes/patterns. And you are right about to each your own, but I think that to dismiss Tony's pentatonic riffs as "simplistic" sells him short as a guitar player and reinforces the "snooty" label that is associated with many jazz aficionados. To cite players from other genres as influences need not mean that they can be overtly heard in copped licks or whatever. Django Reinhard was an influence because Tony lost the fingertips on his left hand in an industrial accident. Thus Reinhardt was an inspiration in helping Tony to believe, and figure out a way to overcome an obstacle which would have stopped most in their tracks.

Another pentatonic/blues based player who comes to mind is Johnny Winter. As with many jazz musicians, he had an endless well of licks and ways to twist and turn those "simplistic scales" into statements with as much value and feeling as those of Coltrane, Miles, et al.

I would also add that the technical proficiency that Tony and Johnny, and countless others, apply to their simplistic "simplistic pentatonic riffs" embodies it's own sort of magic. I don't know if you're a guitar player, if so I encourage you to sit down and learn a couple of their solos note for note.

On a separate note, listen to the album "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath." That record found the songwriting and arrangements operating at a different level. It's not likely to convert you but could certainly be worth forty minutes of your time.

In my opinion they are both monsters in their own right and we will clearly have to agree to disagree on this. 

Ah, the subjectivity of art and music.

Respectfully submitted. 

I've been playing guitar since around 1968 and I'm pretty familiar with guitar blues licks and all that. Not that I am any great shakes after all these years.   I think what is really going on here is Iommi has a sound, that metal electric guitar sound, and was a pioneer with this sound.  I will certainly go that far - he is good at that sound and a certain rough-hewn attitude in his playing.  But that sound is mostly settings on the guitar, amp, and perhaps some signal processing devices in the chain.  If you took off all the amplification and distortion and whatnot and he just played the same thing on an acoustic guitar, there would be very little to it.  I can in most cases easily play the pentatonic riffs he is playing - it's not hard stuff.  Doubtless I cannot play those same notes on an electric and get his sound but then again I don't want to.  These guys are not famous for beautiful melodies, musicality, or memorable lyrics; they are famous for a kind of melodic and rhythmic minimalism coupled with a loud, vaguely menacing, sound, along with campy showmanship and costumes... IMO.  

Johnny Winter, btw, is a whole different thing and really has guitar chops.

Edited 3 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[Holy Ghost]

17 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

I've been playing guitar since around 1968 and I'm pretty familiar with guitar blues licks and all that. Not that I am any great shakes after all these years.   I think what is really going on here is Iommi has a sound, that metal electric guitar sound, and was a pioneer with this sound.  I will certainly go that far - he is good at that sound and a certain rough-hewn attitude in his playing.  But that sound is mostly settings on the guitar, amp, and perhaps some signal processing devices in the chain.  If you took off all the amplification and distortion and whatnot and he just played the same thing on an acoustic guitar, there would be very little to it.  I can in most cases easily play the pentatonic riffs he is playing.  These guys are not famous for beautiful melodies, musicality, or memorable lyrics; they are famous for a kind of melodic and rhythmic minimalism coupled with a loud, vaguely menacing, sound, along with campy showmanship and costumes... IMO.

Tony Iommi unplugged:

 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

4 minutes ago, Holy Ghost said:

Tony Iommi unplugged:

 

So, are you impressed by this?  He says it's a "jazzy solo" but it's a memorized passage and you can go to a guitar store and hear people playing as well or better every day. Okay this is probably not leading to edification so I will shut up.

[Holy Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

So, are you impressed by this?  He says it's a "jazzy solo" but it's a memorized passage and you can go to a guitar store and hear people playing as well or better every day. Okay this is probably not leading to edification so I will shut up.

Okay, agree to disagree. Kinda glad Randy Rhodes hasn't creeped into the conversation yet 😁

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, greggery peccary said:

Tony's playing was blues based and thus was typically rooted in blues and pentatonic scales and their various boxes/patterns. And you are right about to each your own, but I think that to dismiss Tony's pentatonic riffs as "simplistic" sells him short as a guitar player and reinforces the "snooty" label that is associated with many jazz aficionados. To cite players from other genres as influences need not mean that they can be overtly heard in copped licks or whatever. Django Reinhard was an influence because Tony lost the fingertips on his left hand in an industrial accident. Thus Reinhardt was an inspiration in helping Tony to believe, and figure out a way to overcome an obstacle which would have stopped most in their tracks.

Another pentatonic/blues based player who comes to mind is Johnny Winter. As with many jazz musicians, he had an endless well of licks and ways to twist and turn those "simplistic scales" into statements with as much value and feeling as those of Coltrane, Miles, et al.

I would also add that the technical proficiency that Tony and Johnny, and countless others, apply to their simplistic "simplistic pentatonic riffs" embodies it's own sort of magic. I don't know if you're a guitar player, if so I encourage you to sit down and learn a couple of their solos note for note.

On a separate note, listen to the album "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath." That record found the songwriting and arrangements operating at a different level. It's not likely to convert you but could certainly be worth forty minutes of your time.

In my opinion they are both monsters in their own right and we will clearly have to agree to disagree on this. 

Ah, the subjectivity of art and music.

Respectfully submitted. 

@greggery peccary I agree, you seem to have replied in a way that has made it look like I said what another poster actually said and therefore misattributed @Stompin at the Savoy views to me.

I see that they responded to your points anyway.

I was professing support for Iommi's playing and skills.

 

[Holy Ghost]

9 minutes ago, Holy Ghost said:

Okay, agree to disagree. Kinda glad Randy Rhodes hasn't creeped into the conversation yet 😁

Back to Ozzy, I am going to talk about Randy Rhodes. I believe that Ozzy got a windfall with Randy, that dude is/was one of the best things to happen to Ozzy, when he started his solo career. I don't know how anybody can argue that Randy Rhodes wasn't a guitar genius. When he died, ironically, not a rock 'n 'roll death, a plane crash, Ozzy was devastated, and he could never really recoup after he died. I credit Randy as much as Ozzy for Blizzard and Diary of a Madman's success (not the genuis lyrics Geezer penned for Black Sabbath) but the musicianship, wow! and Ozzy was on his game, and that has to be credited to Randy Rhodes. Randy gave him a new life, a breath of fresh air; that's when Ozzy became Ozzy. 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Rhoads is more like the electric guitar virtuosity I used to admire listening to the radio in the 80's.  Yes it's licks and tricks but it's damn fooking impressive nonetheless. 

[greggery peccary]

47 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

@greggery peccary I agree, you seem to have replied in a way that has made it look like I said what another poster actually said and therefore misattributed @Stompin at the Savoy views to me.

I see that they responded to your points anyway.

I was professing support for Iommi's playing and skills.

 

Apologies. I jumped in mid-thread. I suppose that we are guilty of painting with broad brushes of our own choosing. And while we agree as to the merit and substance of Tony's playing, and others don't, an undeniable fact is that yes, they were pioneers in creating the heavy metal genre. They found/created an audience and ultimately reaped the incredible riches that go with the "product" that they made (management and record labels actually stole most of their money for years). Having worked in retail, music is viewed as product. Give the people what they want.

1 hour ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Johnny Winter, btw, is a whole different thing and really has guitar chops.

Iommi/Winter is an apple/orange comparison of sorts, but I was speaking to artists who tend to work within the 'simplistic" pentatonic scale. The vast majority of iconic classic rock solos are firmly rooted in the pentatonic scale (Free Bird!). I suppose my issue was what I read as a broad dismissal of guitarists who tend to rely on the pentatonic scale. 

I would say that they Tony and Johnny both have considerable chops- in their own different way. Then again, take BB King, perhaps the most economic soloist who famously "says more in one note than other guitarists say in a thousand." I wouldn't say that BB has "chops" in the way that the word is typically used, but what he did use he was a master at it. His five-note box blended major and minor pentatonic scales, but he often worked with a five-note framework. It's not the size of the scale- it's how you use it.😉

[Holy Ghost]

9 minutes ago, greggery peccary said:

Apologies. I jumped in mid-thread. I suppose that we are guilty of painting with broad brushes of our own choosing. And while we agree as to the merit and substance of Tony's playing, and others don't, an undeniable fact is that yes, they were pioneers in creating the heavy metal genre. They found/created an audience and ultimately reaped the incredible riches that go with the "product" that they made (management and record labels actually stole most of their money for years). Having worked in retail, music is viewed as product. Give the people what they want.

Yep. Warner Bro's jacked Black Sabbath, and they were 200k in debt by the time they recorded Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, so Black Sabbath named Sabotage to revenge WB after they jacked them. IMO right behind Master of Reality, Sabotage is my favorite record by them. The band kinda had a f*&k it attitude and put out their best record. Interesting how the quality dropped after that, their first real clinker, right after Sabotage in 1976:

Never Say Die was a little better, but nothing like the first six records

 

[greggery peccary]

Air Dance on Never Say Die ventures into jazzy territory. 
I know TE and NSD don’t get much love, but I still find a lot to like on both albums. 
I think that the first two albums packed as powerful a punch as any first two albums. They said “sit up, take notice and listen.”

[Holy Ghost]

You took notice, to quote Bernard Stollman, "you never heard such sounds in your life"

Nothing proceeds this, but then:

Even my mom had a 45 single of Paranoid she bought back in 1970!