NBA 2004-2005

[Jim Alfredson]

I agree with Jim. Artest only escalated what should've been a light scuffle between the players. The fan that threw the beer was a stupid s.o.b., and a million cameras were on him when he did it, so you better believe he'll be charged. But to then head into the stands and start swinging away? Moronic and childish and the only effect was to pour gasoline on the fire.

Why was he lying down on the scoring table? Stupid.

The ESPN guys who are standing behind Artest are reprehensable. He nearly caused a riot to break out. He's lucky he didn't get really hurt. How smart is it to jump into a situation where at least hundreds of people want to kick your ass? Pretty dumb.

Ben should be suspended for 5 or more games. Artest should be suspended for 15 or more. O'Neil should be suspended at least 10 and fined. And ditto for Jackson.

The next three Pistons/Pacers games should be played in an empty arena. And for God's sake, get some experienced refs in there.

I don't want to excuse what Ben did, because it was stupid, but at the same time, he just lost his brother and he had been getting pummeled under the net all night and was not getting any calls. He was clearly extremely frustrated. Again, it doesn't justify what he did, but it might explain why he flew off the handle.

[paul secor]

My thoughts:

Artest should not have lost his cool and charged into the stands, but I can't say that I might not have done the same thing, given the atmosphere on the court. I've seen other players sitting or lying on the scorer's table/media tables many times over the years. I can't remember anyone ever being doused with beer.

Where the hell was security? There should have been security posted at courtside once the players' scuffles broke out, especially in the area near the Pacers. Whoever is in charge of security at the Pistons' arena should be fired immediately.

Where was security when fans were on the court? I saw a clip of a deputy sheriff preparing to pepper spray a Pacers' player on the court. Why wasn't he removing fans from the court? That's his job. Fans do not belong on the court. He should be out of there, too.

Where was security during the skirmishes in the stands? Where was security when the metal chair was tossed up into the stands from courtside?

Any fan who went onto the court and was punched got what he deserved - just like the fans who ran onto NFL football fields and were tackled by players.

I saw a clip of the sheriff's department checking out television footage in the TV truck. I hope that they try to identify every fan who was involved, not just players, including the fans who threw things on the players as they left the court, although I doubt that will happen.

In the end, I place the blame for this on the Piston organization, and on Joe Dumars, since he is in charge. If there had been decent security in place at the arena, this situation probably wouldn't have happened.

Edited November 20, 2004 by paul secor

[Noj]

The NBA has gone into some wild Twilight Zone dimension, where Kobe Bryant hates winning and hard-worker Ron Artest thinks he's Kool Mo Dee.

Correction, Artest thinks he's NWA vintage Dr. Dre! He's nuttier than I thought!

Cue the Twilight Zone theme...

[ghost of miles]

The NBA has suspended four players--Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, and Wallace--indefinitely.

Not much of a basketball fan anymore--I've lost interest in all sports except baseball--but c'mon, a player never goes into the stands. That should be pretty much sancrosanct. OTOH, any fans who throw anything at players should be hit hard, from a legal point-of-view. Really hard, like prison time and a fine.

[Leeway]

The NBA has suspended four players--Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, and Wallace--indefinitely.

Not much of a basketball fan anymore--I've lost interest in all sports except baseball--but c'mon, a player never goes into the stands. That should be pretty much sancrosanct. OTOH, any fans who throw anything at players should be hit hard, from a legal point-of-view. Really hard, like prison time and a fine.

Absolutely right, and courageous coming from an Indiana resident

Curious, what's the buzz in Indiana? What's local opinion on this sorry incident?

Those indefinite suspensions are fully justified. I had predicted 20+ game suspensions a little earlier in this thread. They will certainly go that long.

Also, there will be criminal prosecutions. Stay tuned.

[SEK]

I quite agree with Jim Sangrey. There can never be an excess of wisdom and never too soon.

I am not surprised by Dan Gould's response. That seems to be too often the accepted "wisdom" available or practiced these daze. I recall banned Greg saying something like "I give as good as I get".

I am unable to appreciate Jim Dye's quip about Detroit fans. I hope it was offered as an attempt at comic relief, but I fear that it may become a common sentiment.

Joe Dumars's judgement and demeanor have always been exemplary (Dorko was the only exception that I'm aware of). I fully expect him to do what he can to resolve this situation, but he's not the only guy in the Piston or NBA hierarchy.

While previewing this post, I see what has transpired. Wallace's absence is going to be painful for this Detroit fan, but I think that the NBA is setting what it hopes will be a useful example.

[Jim Dye]

am unable to appreciate Jim Dye's quip about Detroit fans. I hope it was offered as an attempt at comic relief, but I fear that it may become a common sentiment.

Definitely comic relief. Remember, I'm from SE Michigan and a long time Detroit sports fan.

I don't agree that Dumars has anything to do with it. As I understand it, The NBA is in charge of security for the entire league. Joe is head of Basketball Operations. Blame Tom Wilson, or even Bill Davidson, but there is no way Joe Dumars should be on the hook for this.

I agree with this take on the whole fiasco:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writ...eact/index.html

[SEK]

am unable to appreciate Jim Dye's quip about Detroit fans. I hope it was offered as an attempt at comic relief, but I fear that it may become a common sentiment.

Definitely comic relief. Remember, I'm from SE Michigan and a long time Detroit sports fan.

I don't agree that Dumars has anything to do with it. As I understand it, The NBA is in charge of security for the entire league. Joe is head of Basketball Operations. Blame Tom Wilson, or even Bill Davidson, but there is no way Joe Dumars should be on the hook for this.

I agree with this take on the whole fiasco:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writ...eact/index.html

Thanks for the link. I agree with Mannix too.

[ghost of miles]

The NBA has suspended four players--Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, and Wallace--indefinitely. 

Not much of a basketball fan anymore--I've lost interest in all sports except baseball--but c'mon, a player never goes into the stands.  That should be pretty much sancrosanct.  OTOH, any fans who throw anything at players should be hit hard, from a legal point-of-view.  Really hard, like prison time and a fine.

Absolutely right, and courageous coming from an Indiana resident

Curious, what's the buzz in Indiana? What's local opinion on this sorry incident?

Haven't really checked--sheldonm up the Indy way might have more info. I'm sure the focus is more on Wallace's initial reaction to the foul and to the Piston fans' behavior, though, and to the performance fallout for the Pacers that will come from the suspensions.

[sheldonm]

The NBA has suspended four players--Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, and Wallace--indefinitely. 

Not much of a basketball fan anymore--I've lost interest in all sports except baseball--but c'mon, a player never goes into the stands.  That should be pretty much sancrosanct.  OTOH, any fans who throw anything at players should be hit hard, from a legal point-of-view.  Really hard, like prison time and a fine.

Absolutely right, and courageous coming from an Indiana resident

Curious, what's the buzz in Indiana? What's local opinion on this sorry incident?

Haven't really checked--sheldonm up the Indy way might have more info. I'm sure the focus is more on Wallace's initial reaction to the foul and to the Piston fans' behavior, though, and to the performance fallout for the Pacers that will come from the suspensions.

I just watched a long segment on the local news where they show the entire brawl uncut with many different camera angles. It seems to me that their take is that things were beginning to calm down when the fans got involved. After Artest's foul and Ben's shove, both benches emptied but everyone was really just shoving and yelling. Then Ben Wallace threw his towel in Artest's face from about 10 feet away. Everyone pushing and shoving again. Then the asshole threw the beer and all hell broke loose......now my opinion after seeing it......I would agree that a player should never go into a crowd but I'm not sure I would have just sat there either. I think Ben was wrong in what he did after a hard foul and that certainly fired up the crowd (they showed the camera on the crowd while Artest and Wallace exchanged pleasantries) and they were screaming and displaying some nice hand gestures. That said, If this would have happended in Indy, I would be so embarrased for the way the crowd reacted; that was the saddest shit I have ever seen. I hope a handful of the losers that threw something were on the receiving end of a few of those punches. It's to the point that fans feel as though they can say or do anything they want to because they bought a ticket. Maybe if a few of them have to replace a few teeth or get sued themselves, that may slow it down. I think of you want to yell and get excited, go for it, but the vulgarity shown by these fans shouldn't be allowed anymore than waht Artest and some others did. I know the players are paid professional, but the abuse they took from these fans was beyond belief. What did the idiots that threw things expect. I know if I threw something on a player (or anyone else), I would be surprised if they didn't smack me a little . Very unfortunate and sorry my local team was involved. I hope the game here in Indy on Christmas day is a little more civil!

[ghost of miles]

I hope the game here in Indy on Christmas day is a little more civil!

The next Pacers-Pistons matchup is on Christmas Day? Let us pray for peace!

[paul secor]

I hope the game here in Indy on Christmas day is a little more civil!

The next Pacers-Pistons matchup is on Christmas Day? Let us pray for peace!

Agreed.

But ... Whoever was responsible for security (whether it was the NBA or the Pistons) didn't do their job. In most sports, it's my understanding that it's the home team's responsibility to provide a secure atmosphere for the players and the fans. This didn't happen in Detroit.

I hope that I never see anything like that happen again.

To my mind, it's the end result of the relatively recent (since the 80's) tradition of "hard fouls" (dirty basketball) which began with the Celtics in the 80's, was perfected by the Bad Boys, and has become a fact of life in the NBA. If David Stern really wants to put an end to all of this, he should have any player who commits a "hard foul" ejected from that game and suspended for another. That kind of play would soon end. Until then, I'm afraid that last night's melee won't be the last.

[sheldonm]

I hope the game here in Indy on Christmas day is a little more civil!

The next Pacers-Pistons matchup is on Christmas Day? Let us pray for peace!

I just talked with a friend of mine that works for the local rag and he said that the Pacers will dress two injured players with 6 healthy player tonight as the rules say you must dress 8 players or forfiet. So the pacers will actually play with the starting five plus a a guy that probably hasn't played two minutes this year; should be fun! I'm sure if these are multiple game suspensions (they will be), the Pacers will look for CBA or other players to fill in (special exemption).

He also said that security was beefed up at Conseco Fieldhouse for tonights game and that the Pistons have now doubled security at the Palace.

Mark

[BruceW]

Everyone has a take on this situation, as well they should, I do also. I say....

Let's go back to the foul which is ultimately being written off as "not so bad" etc ...

That is bullshit. Watch the tapes close, very close. Artest crashes Wallace after Wallace has left his feet. This is a guard forward crashing a center/power forward from behind; insane and very intentional. This could have been a scenario where Ben Wallace was hurt very bad, except for the fact he is so strong and was able to land and stay on his feet. Now having said that..... Ben Wallace is (this year) also becoming an offensive threat and none of the other teams are really care as long as long as Ben does not instill fear in them. Since that did happen, as a result no player is going to "go after" Ben Wallace again. I think he pretty much established that he is going to knock the piss out of anyone who comes at him. Bravo!! If you watched closely, after Ben nearly took his head off, Artest back pedaled very rapidly out of reach. This is a right of passage for every big guy in the league and always has been. Artest is nuts, but Ben has arrived (fines, suspension and all).

Now, Artest should NEVER have been laying up on the scorer's table. The coaches should have put more space between Artest and Wallace and the rest may never have happened. But since it did, let us not pretend that this is the first time or the players was "oh so bad." We all may not remember the Kermit Washington event, but let us please not forget the "right of passage" when Kareem Jabbar decked Kent Benson. It is going to happen as long as there is a league and the athletes are real people.

Ben Wallace: (fine me, suspend me, and then lets get on with the game like Jabbar).

Artest: (I have a real problem, please help me or kick me out of the league like you did Kermit Washington).

B-)

Edited November 21, 2004 by BruceW

[BruceW]

To my mind, it's the end result of the relatively recent (since the 80's) tradition of "hard fouls" (dirty basketball) which began with the Celtics in the 80's, was perfected by the Bad Boys, and has become a fact of life in the NBA. If David Stern really wants to put an end to all of this, he should have any player who commits a "hard foul" ejected from that game and suspended for another.

I'm afraid "dirty fouls" as you call them goes back further than that. You might remember when special subtitutions were made during a game to send in the "hatchet men." That term gave way to the Enforcers then to the Power Forwards. Those "hatchet" men would come in the game and literally make life very miserable for the opposing athlete that was scoring "too many points" or to just take a foul but to also let the opposing player know what his status was. Do you remember Jim Luscatoff???? Yeah he was with Boston also but way before the 80's.

B-)

Edited November 21, 2004 by BruceW

[sheldonm]

Pacers lose by 3 (in the final few seconds) in a great game with a packed house. Only six players available to play; five of the six played 45 minutes or more; Fred Jones with a career high of 31. Great effort by all!

[sheldonm]

Now, Artest should NEVER have been laying up on the scorer's table.

I've seen it dozen times by many different players/teams.

[Jim Alfredson]

Why is Wallace suspended indefinately? Have they just not decided how many games to suspend him? He didn't enter the stands, nor did he punch anyone, so he shouldn't be suspended as long as O'Neil or Artest.

[sheldonm]

Why is Wallace suspended indefinately? Have they just not decided how many games to suspend him? He didn't enter the stands, nor did he punch anyone, so he shouldn't be suspended as long as O'Neil or Artest.

I heard they will make the decisions on the number of games tomorrow.

[BruceW]

Now, Artest should NEVER have been laying up on the scorer's table.

I've seen it dozen times by many different players/teams.

We're talking about "after a fight."

B-)

[sheldonm]

Now, Artest should NEVER have been laying up on the scorer's table.

I've seen it dozen times by many different players/teams.

We're talking about "after a fight."

B-)

I'm not sure what you're taling about, I'm just saying I've seen players on the scoring table many times B-). I would agree that players have no business there but it's not all that rare for some reason.

[paul secor]

To my mind, it's the end result of the relatively recent (since the 80's) tradition of "hard fouls" (dirty basketball) which began with the Celtics in the 80's, was perfected by the Bad Boys, and has become a fact of life in the NBA. If David Stern really wants to put an end to all of this, he should have any player who commits a "hard foul" ejected from that game and suspended for another.

I'm afraid "dirty fouls" as you call them goes back further than that. You might remember when special subtitutions were made during a game to send in the "hatchet men." That term gave way to the Enforcers then to the Power Forwards. Those "hatchet" men would come in the game and literally make life very miserable for the opposing athlete that was scoring "too many points" or to just take a foul but to also let the opposing player know what his status was. Do you remember Jim Luscatoff???? Yeah he was with Boston also but way before the 80's.

B-)

I do go back that far, and I do remember him. Hard fouls and hatchet men have probably existed for a long time, but I've watched NBA basketball over the years and hard fouls, to my memory, became commonplace in the 80's, and are a fact of life in the NBA today. Jim Luscatoff (sp?) was fairly unique in his day. Back then, when the term, hatchetman, was used, he came to mind. Today, that term is useless, because there are so many that it has no real meaning.

My point was that players don't want to play defense. It's easier to clobber someone or knock them down if they beat you on a drive to the basket than to try and play good individual or team defense. The NBA condones this, to a great degree, and I think that it's hurt the NBA game and created confrontational situations, of Friday night's melee was the topper.

Incidentally, I remember those Celtics teams from the late 50's to mid 60's, and they were great enough that they didn't need Jungle Jim and his type of play.

I enjoy watching good basketball. I don't enjoy a lot of the crap that goes on now. The NBA should get rid of "hard fouls" and send that kind of play back to the playgrounds where it exists because there are no referees and not a lot of defense.

[sheldonm]

I see that Artest got 30 games and Jackson/O'Neal got 20 each; Ben Wallace got 5 .

[Jim Alfredson]

That seems fair.

[sheldonm]

That seems fair.

It depends which team you're pulling for . I believe the Pacer's year may be over early. Maybe we can return the favor when your boys come to town !

Just kiddin'