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undergroundagent

Spotted: Cheap Mosaic Selects

35 posts in this topic

Well, if no one is going to buy my box sets, you might as well buy Mosaic Selects for $32 from this guy. I've bought from him in the past.

Don Pullen

Andrew Hill

Art Pepper

Ebay link

Edited by undergroundagent

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These Los Angeles area dealers are all getting their Mosaic CDs illegally. Someone in EMI's LA office is leaking them out by the box-full. It's been going on for years now. This dealer will probably say he got them from a legit wholesaler, but that wholesaler didn't acquire them legally because they're not available legally. Currently, only Mosaic has the license for these box sets.

Just like Batvano of days passed, these sellers are picking up these sets that "fell off the truck" and selling them as legit copies. Mosaic tells me they are not legit.

For the extra $7, my money's still going to Mosaic.

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Fair enough. I won't argue about where they came from, but for people who can't necessarily afford Mosaic prices (and shipping!), I'll gladly take the discount. I need not worry about their origins, only that they aren't ripping me off. That may not be very diplomatic, but it's how I must proceed until I earn an income that supports excess music purchases.

On the other hand, I would hate to see these matters significantly burden Mosaic business to the point that they would eventually have to close operations. Unfortunately, I don't have a choice at this time. My budget is tight, and if I want the music I must look for the best possible deal.

I don't really think it's the consumer's job to differentiate between who is selling the product. Rather, it's the manufacturer's job to eliminate these choices by ensuring these back-room deals don't take place.

Edited by undergroundagent

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Fair enough. I won't argue about where they came from, but for people who can't necessarily afford Mosaic prices (and shipping!), I'll gladly take the discount. I need not worry about their origins, only that they aren't ripping me off. That may not be very diplomatic, but it's how I must proceed until I earn an income that supports excess music purchases.

On the other hand, I would hate to see these matters significantly burden Mosaic business to the point that they would eventually have to close operations. Unfortunately, I don't have a choice at this time. My budget is tight, and if I want the music I must look for the best possible deal.

I don't really think it's the consumer's job to differentiate between who is selling the product. Rather, it's the manufacturer's job to eliminate these choices by ensuring these back-room deals don't take place.

:tdown:tdown:tdown

Terribly a pity that your choices are so limited...

You know, if one takes that "I don't have a choice at this time" logic only a little bit farther, one can justify just about anything. Illegal downloading of material otherwise available for purchase. Shoplifting. Outright burglary of the "breaking-and-entering" variety. The sky's the limit. <_<

For the extra $7, my money's still going to Mosaic.

Me too!!!

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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Sorry, Tom, but I don't have the money to be debating the merits of who I should be buying my jazz box sets from.

If I was buying house insurance, or taking out a mortgage, I would be looking for something other than the best deal. For jazz cds, I'm sorry...if the retailer who is offering the product delivers the item as described to me, I've gotten what I paid for.

If Mosaic is unwilling to seek legal action against these sellers, why should I feel any different!!?! It's there responsibility to prevent these outfits from illegally selling their products, not my responsibility to refuse buying them. How do I know their stolen!?!?! Because someone on the board said so!?!?!

Prove to me that I am liable for buying a box set from an private Ebay seller, and I'll think otherwise. I'd think that this was Ebay's problem to sort out, not mine!

Edited by undergroundagent

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EMI employees are given access to a whole lot of free discs, it isn't secretive.

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I'm not saying one has to personally investigate the origins of every single product one buys from every 3rd party source. (I buy used CD's all the time, and clearly I don't thoroughly investigate to confirm that each and every one wasn't stolen.)

But when confronted with evidence that something is likely stolen goods, that should influence one's purchasing decisions. If a deal is too good to be true, it probably is.

If somebody offered to sell you a "like new" car, at a significantly "below-market" price, such that you had reason to believe that it was stolen -- would you buy it anyway?? -- and blame the original owner and the police for not having recovered the stolen car yet??

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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But there is no evidence.

I don't have to blame anyone in this case because I can't be held liable for purchasing a third-party jazz box set through a leading on-line auction site acting as the auctioneer on the seller's behalf.

As far as I know, I'm buying a box set. Not a stolen set!

Edited by undergroundagent

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Sorry, Tom, but I don't have the money to be debating the merits of who I should be buying my jazz box sets from.

Speaking of that: would someone please provide us an update re: these Mosaic sales? Not to re-open an old wound, but I'd like to know things ended up and there's no sense starting up some new thread.

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But there is no evidence.

I don't have to blame anyone in this case because I can't be held liable for purchasing a third-party jazz box set through a leading on-line auction site acting as the auctioneer on the seller's behalf.

As far as I know, I'm buying a box set. Not a stolen set!

Fair enough. But if one reads your prior posts in this thread, it sounds like you wouldn't care one way or another, if you knew it was stolen. "Not MY problem, just as long as I'M not the one getting screwed."

I need not worry about their origins, only that they aren't ripping me off.

So who cares if they're stolen?? I'm gettin' mine; that's all that matters.

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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Why should I bother to ask their origins!?!?!

It's true. I'm not the federal government. Hell, I'm not even a lawyer, or a U.S. Citizen. Why is it my duty to correct the problems of multi-million dollar corporations who have all means at their disposal to squash these matters? If this is really a concern for Mosaic/EMI, then they should be doing something about it.

Hell, if it was even a minor concern, shouldn't they consider emailing all of their "loyal customers" that this company is a fraud, and should not be trusted? I don't see that happening. If this really is a "legal" matter, they should have no trouble speaking out against them.

And suddenly I should be held accountable because I'm not willing to confront a retailer who MAY be selling stolen good through a trustyworth third-party!?!?!

Edited by undergroundagent

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OK, here's a real world example...

A certain used CD store in your town has the habit of having used copies of brand new box sets within a week after they first hit the streets. (How about something more specific, how about the fancy Miles Columbia box sets with the metal spines.) Usually a couple copies, sometimes three -- though they never have all three out on the shelves at one time. But once one is gone, there's another "used" one in stock, in just a few days.

You hear through the grapevine that they're "falling off the back of trucks", and later hear that one or maybe two of the employees of that used CD store also happen to work part-time at Best Buy (or have friends that work at Best Buy -- the story isn't always the same, but there are similar details.). Easy to put two-and-two together, right??

So the latest Miles box set comes out, and sure thing -- two days after the street-date, they have a used copy for sale. Knowing what you've heard through the grapevine, do you buy the "used" set at their great price?? - knowing that in all likelihood that it was stolen.

This isn't some pansy-ass "hypothetical" question -- there was one particular used CD chain here in Kansas City, where this exact thing was very likely going on. I saw the used copies of the Miles box sets myself, and I've heard the rumors from more than one independent source.

Full disclosure -- there's some chance my Miles 1965-68 box was one of those that "fell off the back of a truck". I found it "used", at the store in question, about two weeks after the street-date. It was a great deal, and it never occurred to me at the time that it might have been stolen. Then later, I heard some rumors, and sure enough -- there were a couple Miles & Gil sets that passed through there shortly after the street-date. I later found what I think (or at least hope) was a legit used copy of the Miles & Gil, for a good price, about six or either months later ---- at a different store.

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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Again, where is the evidence!?!?! It's hearsay, and would never stand up in a court of law. Now this becomes an explosive legal matter because you begin questioning the US legal system and whether real criminals are being let off due to lack of evidence.

Personally, I feel as though there much more brilliant men and women who put these rules in place, and if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me. Yes, the law should adapt itself to reflect changing conditions and attitudes, but the basic premise will always hold true. A person is innocent until proven guilty!

Edited by undergroundagent

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The way this thread is going is exactly why I didn't post on it until today. I figured there would be some disagreement.

Listen everyone, I posted what I posted for information only. Readers are free to do whatever they want with this information. I am making no value judgements, only stating facts. There's no need to start a big brew-ha-ha over it.

As for how to know if these sets (and yes, this dealer responded to an E-mail saying he has mulitple copies) are legal, I can only report what I was told.

Fact: Only Mosaic is licensed to sell this set now.

Fact: Mosaic would have a record of this sale and for this particular dealer, there is no record.

Yes, anyone could buy a bunch of sets from Mosaic and re-sell them, as Collector's Choice does, but if they want to stay in business, they would likely sell them at a higher price than Mosaic. If this dealer wants to sell these at a loss, hey, different story. :)

I would also add that these dealers are certainly damaging Mosaic. Every set they sell is one less set that Mosaic sells. For this reason alone, disregarding the legalities, I wouldn't take advantage of this deal. I just could not screw my favorite record label like that.

As for financial reasons, well, I am sympathetic to this... however, if you can't afford something, the best bet is to not buy it until the funds are available. That's how it works in my house. There are a lot of things I'd love to buy right now too. :)

Kevin

Edited by Kevin Bresnahan

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All of these Selects are numbered, so can Mosaic trace them to a specific source? Here in L.A. it's quite easy to find promos and other "illegit" stock items because of all the record companies here. It's semantics, I know, but these items aren't usually "stolen" in the usual sense of the word - though the sellers may not be licensed to sell them regardless. I work in the movie side of Universal - which is no longer even affiliated with Uni Music - and we get promo CDs floating around here all the time, passed down from various executive offices, often left "up for grabs" on the swag tables. I've seen these Selects in various spots around town, and most of them are the ones licensed from EMI - so it's pretty clear where the "leak" is - so if Mosaic is really concerned they can probably trace these "promo" sets (or whatever you want to call them) back to their source via the numbers on the boxes.

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Sorry, Tom, but I don't have the money to be debating the merits of who I should be buying my jazz box sets from.

Speaking of that: would someone please provide us an update re: these Mosaic sales? Not to re-open an old wound, but I'd like to know things ended up and there's no sense starting up some new thread.

In my case, the issue was never resolved. I have never heard from pryan since, but I bought this set from another member of the board. :)

Edited by ASNL77

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All of these Selects are numbered, so can Mosaic trace them to a specific source? Here in L.A. it's quite easy to find promos and other "illegit" stock items because of all the record companies here. It's semantics, I know, but these items aren't usually "stolen" in the usual sense of the word - though the sellers may not be licensed to sell them regardless. I work in the movie side of Universal - which is no longer even affiliated with Uni Music - and we get promo CDs floating around here all the time, passed down from various executive offices, often left "up for grabs" on the swag tables. I've seen these Selects in various spots around town, and most of them are the ones licensed from EMI - so it's pretty clear where the "leak" is - so if Mosaic is really concerned they can probably trace these "promo" sets (or whatever you want to call them) back to their source via the numbers on the boxes.

Mosaic has been trying to plug this leak for years now. It's more than just a few promos. According to what I've been told, Mosaic thinks someone is grabbing full boxes of CDs. They are getting access to them before the get to EMI, and definitely before Mosaic gets them. That's why there is no box or booklet: Mosaic inserts the CDs in CT. Selects are shipped directly from the plant sealed. That's why these Selects are complete.

As to why these CDs are on the docks at the corporate offices of EMI, yes, it is for EMI to do with them as they will (which likely includes giving out bunches as promos). But these particular sets never seem to make it into EMI in the first place. Mosaic can't account for them.

My guess is someone on the docks at EMI's LA office is dropping them out the back door.

Kevin

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i need a job at EMI in LA, would this m/s out the back door thing be considered a fringe benefit?

:unsure:

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Sorry, Tom, but I don't have the money to be debating the merits of who I should be buying my jazz box sets from.

Speaking of that: would someone please provide us an update re: these Mosaic sales? Not to re-open an old wound, but I'd like to know things ended up and there's no sense starting up some new thread.

Side note: pryan hasn't posted here since his last post in that closed thread, on February 20.

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For $7 discount, I'd probably go direct with Mosaic as well.

Now if Underground were to drop a few more $ off one of his sets he bought from this character...then maybe....

;)

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I agree with UA that Mosaic's international shipping rates are quite high.

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Believe it or not, it's that $10 S/H that detracts me from buying the Selects. Otherwise, I'd be all for it. I really want to hear some of that music.

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I just looked at the ebay link again and noticed that the seller lists the quantities available of each title. He has multiple copies of each. 15 copies available of the Pullen Select! 5 copies with no box/booklet for the Sarah Vaughn? No way a dealer buys that many without Mosaic knowing (and Mosaic does not sell without box/booklet). They'd probably even negotiate a discount for a big sale like this. It wouldn't be enough of a discount to allow them to sell it for $32 and still make a profit, though.

I just can't see how this seller can be legit.

Kevin

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