Chuck Nessa Posted April 22, 2007 Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Has anyone tried green magic markers on the terminals of a stereo cartridge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4XB Posted April 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2007 Interesting results can be produced by rewiring the cartridge from stereo to mono. This rewiring can be outside the turntable. Yes , those without mono cartridges or without a mono button on their amp can put two Y adaptors between the turntable and the amp . No need to rewire the cartridge itself . The two male RCA jacks from the turntable are put into a Y adaptor with two female RCA jacks going into one male RCA jack . This male RCA jack is then put into a Y adapator with one female RCA jack going into two male RCA jacks . These two male RCA jacks are then plugged into the phono stage of your amp . Using a Y-connecter sums the channels to give a nominally L + R signal. This is the horizontal information on the record. The vertical information is L - R. The problem is that cartridges have crosstalk, both from left to right channels and from L + R to L - R (the same thing if you think about the math of it). By using a Y- connecter, you get the L + R signal plus some of the L - R signal via crosstalk. A true mono cartridge never picks up any L - R information in the first place , so there is no way it can contaminate the L + R signal. [Posted by chickenlogic ( A ) on January 06, 2005. Vinyl Asylum] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 (edited) Using a Y-connecter sums the channels to give a nominally L + R signal. This is the horizontal information on the record. The vertical information is L - R. The problem is that cartridges have crosstalk, both from left to right channels and from L + R to L - R (the same thing if you think about the math of it). By using a Y- connecter, you get the L + R signal plus some of the L - R signal via crosstalk. A true mono cartridge never picks up any L - R information in the first place , so there is no way it can contaminate the L + R signal. [Posted by chickenlogic ( A ) on January 06, 2005. Vinyl Asylum] Yes , I already noted this in my initial post . A stereo cartridge is sensitive to the L-R difference signal , and since crosstalk , while a function of cartridge design , cannot be completely eliminated , the signal output when using a stereo cartridge summed to mono through a double Y adapter will be different from that of a 'pure' mono cartridge .The question is , as I said , is the noise from the L-R difference signal audible above the noise floor created by the tracing/tracking distortion , cartridge/tonearm resonance etc. ? Does it warrant spending money on a mono cartridge ? Does it warrant the inconvenience of swapping cartridges instead of cables every time you listen to mono records , with the attendant risk of raising the noise floor if the swap is not done with care and precision ? Obviously , since you've gone to the added trouble of using two tonearms and two phono stages , you think it is warranted . Other people's cost-benefit analysis will be different . Edited April 23, 2007 by Chas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted April 23, 2007 Report Share Posted April 23, 2007 ...The question is , as I said , is the noise from the L-R difference signal audible above the noise floor created by the tracing/tracking distortion , cartridge/tonearm resonance etc. ? Does it warrant spending money on a mono cartridge ? Does it warrant the inconvenience of swapping cartridges instead of cables every time you listen to mono records , with the attendant risk of raising the noise floor if the swap is not done with care and precision ?... EXACTLY. This is my question too. How different is the sound, really, from using a stereo cartridge and hitting the "mono" switch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Anybody here supervised the mastering of mono and stereo masters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Can we put some conclusion here: is Y wiring of stereo cartridge any good, or mono cartridge is way better and the only way to go for playing mono material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4XB Posted April 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 (edited) Can we put some conclusion here: is Y wiring of stereo cartridge any good, or mono cartridge is way better and the only way to go for playing mono material? Y-wiring= cheap...........but sounds cheap to, please forget it. A true monocartridge gives you way much better sounding monorecords! (even of playing with the most expensive stereocart.) If you can permit it to your self, please do it. ( you also need a big bunch of mono`s as well) The last day`s I`ve played a bunch of bad sounding second (hand bought) Savoy mono`s. They all sound nearmint now and a way better audio quality. This amazed me, I`m a very very happy man at the moment. Edited April 24, 2007 by 4XB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted April 24, 2007 Report Share Posted April 24, 2007 Anybody here supervised the mastering of mono and stereo masters? No, so why don't explain us your POV? A part the fact that you are allergic to everything that smells of audio fanatic, maybe you may take some antihistamine and enlighten us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 (edited) Not to drag this out, but on th Steve Hoffman forum, SH says to simply go with the mono button or Y adapter and save your money on the mono cartridge... Edited May 2, 2007 by Teasing the Korean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Anybody here supervised the mastering of mono and stereo masters? No, so why don't explain us your POV? A part the fact that you are allergic to everything that smells of audio fanatic, maybe you may take some antihistamine and enlighten us? Nah, belittling those who haven't "supervised the mastering of mono and stereo masters" is much more fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Not to drag this out, but on th Steve Hoffman forum, SH says to simply go with the mono button or Y adapter and save your money on the mono cartridge... I agree. A dedicated mono cartridge is a nice luxury if you've got the bread, but summing the outputs is a much cheaper and nearly as effective a way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Not to drag this out, but on th Steve Hoffman forum, SH says to simply go with the mono button or Y adapter and save your money on the mono cartridge... I agree. A dedicated mono cartridge is a nice luxury if you've got the bread, but summing the outputs is a much cheaper and nearly as effective a way to go. like alot of what Hoffman says, this is nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Not to drag this out, but on th Steve Hoffman forum, SH says to simply go with the mono button or Y adapter and save your money on the mono cartridge... I agree. A dedicated mono cartridge is a nice luxury if you've got the bread, but summing the outputs is a much cheaper and nearly as effective a way to go. like alot of what Hoffman says, this is nonsense. How is this exactly "nonsense?" I'm agreeing with others that a dedicated mono cartridge is "better," but it is obviously costlier. Summing the outputs is cheaper and it sounds nearly as good. Like Chuck, you seem eager to criticize and taunt us with your superior knowledge and experience, and yet you're unwilling to back it up with, well, anything of substance. So okay, the floor is yours... why is a mono cartridge better, cheaper, and more mono-y? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 is this true, Ray? & what's "nearly"? i mean that plainly, sincerely... i've always assumed when i got on the good foot, i'd just have two tables, one multi-speed mono, another stereo for lps almost exclusively (cuz my interest in stereo 45s outside a few punk/DIY things is minimal). edc in deadwax Eh, I'm not enough of an audiophile to know more than what I read, but here's some simple enough info... http://www.stereophile.com/artdudleylisten...ning/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Thanks for posting that article. If I had unlimited income and space, I would no doubt spring for one of these mono cartridges. That said, the only one I can see myself realistically buying would be a lower-end Grado or Ortofon. And I'm not convinced it would do much more for the sound than the mono button on my amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Not to drag this out, but on th Steve Hoffman forum, SH says to simply go with the mono button or Y adapter and save your money on the mono cartridge... I agree. A dedicated mono cartridge is a nice luxury if you've got the bread, but summing the outputs is a much cheaper and nearly as effective a way to go. like alot of what Hoffman says, this is nonsense. How is this exactly "nonsense?" I'm agreeing with others that a dedicated mono cartridge is "better," but it is obviously costlier. Summing the outputs is cheaper and it sounds nearly as good. Like Chuck, you seem eager to criticize and taunt us with your superior knowledge and experience, and yet you're unwilling to back it up with, well, anything of substance. So okay, the floor is yours... why is a mono cartridge better, cheaper, and more mono-y? asked and answered already in this thread. may I suggest getting a mono cart and hearing for yourself? if you don't think it is worth it you can always return it. " nearly as good" in audio is like almost making the first down. and as coach says " you got to fight for every inch". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4XB Posted May 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 VERDICT: ya'll do need a good, even low-end mono cartridge; why settle for less? i certainly can't afford carts & stylii that cost more than my car but please people, some RESPECT for serious technical talent & efforts of our forebears. edc ozona, fla $ 177 for a Denon DL 102, a true mono, incl. shipping! Or......You are driving a very cheap car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 (edited) VERDICT: ya'll do need a good, even low-end mono cartridge; why settle for less? i certainly can't afford carts & stylii that cost more than my car but please people, some RESPECT for serious technical talent & efforts of our forebears. edc ozona, fla $ 177 for a Denon DL 102, a true mono, incl. shipping! Or......You are driving a very cheap car. Plus $$$ for a TT, $$$ for an arm, $$$ for a phono stage, $$$ cable, the grand total is... ...w/o considering the place for them. Edited May 3, 2007 by porcy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I've thought about putting a mono cartridge on my 2nd TT. May yet happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Some interesting discussion (and links to more) here... http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=112939 One interesting point that Steve mentions is that a mono stylus will really only help mono LPs cut prior to 1968 or so. After that, most mono LPs were cut with stereo cutting heads so there might not be as much of an advantage on more recent reissues of mono LPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 (edited) Some interesting discussion (and links to more) here... http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=112939 One interesting point that Steve mentions is that a mono stylus will really only help mono LPs cut prior to 1968 or so. After that, most mono LPs were cut with stereo cutting heads so there might not be as much of an advantage on more recent reissues of mono LPs. That makes sense, but, after 1968, mono pressings were basically only fold-out promos for FM radios. And recent mono reissues, like Classic, are obviously out of this thread, though they claim that their mono records are cutted with a true mono system. A dedicated mono system would be nice, and I am sure it would sound great, but, as somebody pointed out, it's a matter of cost and place. For what I have i doubt I could build up a decent mono front-end for less 1000/1500 $. Edited May 3, 2007 by porcy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted May 4, 2007 Report Share Posted May 4, 2007 Having poked around on various websites, I've decided that a mono cartridge in my price range isn't worth it. I'm sticking with the mono button. If those with a greater amount of disposable income want to buy a mono cartridge and/or get plastic surgery, that's their business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 I am using an old Thorens TD-124 with two torearms--one for mono the other for stereo. In the stock position is my SME 3012 with a mono Ortofon CG25, a true mono cartidge that moves only in one plane--the arm is stereo and the headshell mounts in the conventional way. The other arm at the back of the table is a 12" Ikeda arm with an Ortofon SPU G. Mono records played with the mono cartridge are MUCH quiter than when played on the Stereo cartridge. And they sound a bit more dynamic as well. I am really glad I set this up a couple of years ago, as I play mono records about half to two-thirds of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 I am using an old Thorens TD-124 with two torearms--one for mono the other for stereo. In the stock position is my SME 3012 with a mono Ortofon CG25, a true mono cartidge that moves only in one plane--the arm is stereo and the headshell mounts in the conventional way. The other arm at the back of the table is a 12" Ikeda arm with an Ortofon SPU G. Mono records played with the mono cartridge are MUCH quiter than when played on the Stereo cartridge. And they sound a bit more dynamic as well. I am really glad I set this up a couple of years ago, as I play mono records about half to two-thirds of the time. I believe you. How much will it cost me? Will an inexpensive mono cartridge do anything for me that the mono button wil not do? And I mean inexpensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 I believe you. How much will it cost me? Will an inexpensive mono cartridge do anything for me that the mono button wil not do? And I mean inexpensive. Maybe not. The only one I would be willing to try is the Denon 102. I know it's not a "true" mono cartrdige in that it moves in both planes and can play stereo records, but I have been told it's really a great value and sounds fantastic with mono LPs. You will need a big, heavy tonearm to make it sing, however (think SME, FR, Ortofon, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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