Ike Takes Back River Deep Mountain High

[JSngry]

It's in G now instead of Bb, and DAMN...

[JSngry]

Up. Not letting this one sink without a trace just yet.

[Chuck Nessa]

Been there, done that. Saw the roadshow in the early '70s from the first row. Amazing.

[Harold_Z]

Burnin'! Ike and Tina did some of the cookinest greatest 60s soul stuff and quite a few live albums that I haven't seen pop up much on cd. There was one cd reissue of 2 great lps from Warner and Loma, but I can think of at least a couple of other live lps that afik haven't resurfaced. Tina may have gone on to greater success and she may have had good reason to leave Ike, but the music never burned as much when Ike wasn't around.

[JSngry]

What really interests me about this particular clip is how Ike (who was apparently paid well to stay out of the way during the creation of the original) has now snatched the song back from Spector and pretty much eradicated the need to associate it with anything "Wall Of Soun"-y, and how Tina takes the lower key and totally fills up the vocal.

[Harold_Z]

Yeah - imho - a power play by Spector in order to be viewed as the omniscient producer and to continue to promote his public perception as such. You know the scene - Spector is the guy who knows how to get Tina a hit and Ike is the guy holding her back with his "fixed" ideas. A scenario that can work for those inclined to buy it but my viewpoint is that Spector's production was another take on Tina and the response is subjective as to whether you like Spector's Tina or Ike's Tina. In my case I'm glad Spector's record is around - and I dig it - but I give the edge to Ike's funk over Spector's wall of sound. Once the record was done Spector was out of the picture and Ike was again in the driver's seat. He's the musical director for the live show and he's going to do what he likes - which happens to be funky, smokin' R&B with great visual impact. Same approach for Honky Tonk Woman and Proud Mary.

[JSngry]

The key change is a big deal, I think. Lower key, fatter sound. And Tina no longer soars over, but takes over.

Fascinating.

[Harold_Z]

I agree about the key change. I wonder if that was a point of contention between Ike and Spector ...or if the track was already in the can before it was given to Tina.

[AllenLowe]

Ike was a great musician going back to the stuff he did for Sun and some other labels in the '50s.

I mean, as Lenny Bruce might say, raping a few women doesn't make anybody bad -

[JSngry]

Been there, done that. Saw the roadshow in the early '70s from the first row. Amazing.

Amazing indeed.

And this version of RDMH...yeah..

Edited December 29, 2012 by JSngry

[Teasing the Korean]

I never cared for the Phil Spector version. Phil's approach seemed wrong for Tina, and Tina's voice seemed wrong for Phil. A true mismatch.

[robertoart]

Well Ike was hardly gonna not have the song in the repertoire.

He had to do something to it to make it stage and band friendly.

Tina Turner and Buddhism...

[John L]

Those clips remind of the day I first felt tranformed from boy to man. It happened in Berkeley in the summer of '69 in the front row at Zellerbach auditorium under those three mini skirts.

Edited December 29, 2012 by John L

[robertoart]

What really interests me about this particular clip is how Ike (who was apparently paid well to stay out of the way during the creation of the original) has now snatched the song back from Spector and pretty much eradicated the need to associate it with anything "Wall Of Soun"-y, and how Tina takes the lower key and totally fills up the vocal.

I bet Ike was as disappointed as anyone that the record didn't sell in the States.

He would have had to of been some kind of a sociopath not too.

[ValerieB]

Well Ike was hardly gonna not have the song in the repertoire.

He had to do something to it to make it stage and band friendly.

Tina Turner and Buddhism...

question: what does Tina Turner and Buddhism have to do with it?!? please clarify since it's not making any sense to me.

[robertoart]

It doesn't really have anything to do with it per se.

However, I suppose I hear of a lot of musicians who have turned to Buddhism. Larry Coryell, in his autobiography, places great emphasis on being introduced to chanting by Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, and how this helped transform him from Alcoholism.

And I am often confused about the difference between people (Western Buddhists exactly), who follow a meditation tradition, or chanting or whatever, and those that actually embrace the Religion as an ideology. Personally, I find it a perplexing thing and that devotees can be quite ambiguous about this. So whereas, Buddhism as it is practiced and organised in Countries indigenous to it - is as much cultural as Religious - for Westerners, it seems to float somewhere between 'self help' and actual Religion with a capital R.

I think, in the Tina Turner biopic (at the end), they tended to frame Tina's Buddhism as her solace and self-healing mechanism - to counteract the residual psychic trauma of her life with Ike.

I wonder though, how or if, they would have dealt with it had Tina embraced Islam - or become a Born Again proselytising Christian like Donna Summer?

So in the West, Buddhism has this 'touchy feely' non intrusive, passive, goodwill attached to it, when at it's heart they still try and divine 'god child' beings like the Panchen Lama.

So admittedly it does shit me a bit.

And I quite like the way Social critics like Slavoj Zizek attack this Middle Class Buddhist mindset and the way this plays out in the West .

[7/4]

There's different kinds of Buddhism.

[AllenLowe]

just reading a book on Cage and Zen.

[ValerieB]

It doesn't really have anything to do with it per se.

However, I suppose I hear of a lot of musicians who have turned to Buddhism. Larry Coryell, in his autobiography, places great emphasis on being introduced to chanting by Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, and how this helped transform him from Alcoholism.

And I am often confused about the difference between people (Western Buddhists exactly), who follow a meditation tradition, or chanting or whatever, and those that actually embrace the Religion as an ideology. Personally, I find it a perplexing thing and that devotees can be quite ambiguous about this. So whereas, Buddhism as it is practiced and organised in Countries indigenous to it - is as much cultural as Religious - for Westerners, it seems to float somewhere between 'self help' and actual Religion with a capital R.

I think, in the Tina Turner biopic (at the end), they tended to frame Tina's Buddhism as her solace and self-healing mechanism - to counteract the residual psychic trauma of her life with Ike.

I wonder though, how or if, they would have dealt with it had Tina embraced Islam - or become a Born Again proselytising Christian like Donna Summer?

So in the West, Buddhism has this 'touchy feely' non intrusive, passive, goodwill attached to it, when at it's heart they still try and divine 'god child' beings like the Panchen Lama.

So admittedly it does shit me a bit.

And I quite like the way Social critics like Slavoj Zizek attack this Middle Class Buddhist mindset and the way this plays out in the West .

so your answer is actually: "nothing." thank you.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

It doesn't really have anything to do with it per se.

However, I suppose I hear of a lot of musicians who have turned to Buddhism. Larry Coryell, in his autobiography, places great emphasis on being introduced to chanting by Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, and how this helped transform him from Alcoholism.

And I am often confused about the difference between people (Western Buddhists exactly), who follow a meditation tradition, or chanting or whatever, and those that actually embrace the Religion as an ideology. Personally, I find it a perplexing thing and that devotees can be quite ambiguous about this. So whereas, Buddhism as it is practiced and organised in Countries indigenous to it - is as much cultural as Religious - for Westerners, it seems to float somewhere between 'self help' and actual Religion with a capital R.

I think, in the Tina Turner biopic (at the end), they tended to frame Tina's Buddhism as her solace and self-healing mechanism - to counteract the residual psychic trauma of her life with Ike.

I wonder though, how or if, they would have dealt with it had Tina embraced Islam - or become a Born Again proselytising Christian like Donna Summer?

So in the West, Buddhism has this 'touchy feely' non intrusive, passive, goodwill attached to it, when at it's heart they still try and divine 'god child' beings like the Panchen Lama.

So admittedly it does shit me a bit.

And I quite like the way Social critics like Slavoj Zizek attack this Middle Class Buddhist mindset and the way this plays out in the West .

so your answer is actually: "nothing." thank you.

Just remembered you were working with them, back in the day.

MG

[ValerieB]

It doesn't really have anything to do with it per se.

However, I suppose I hear of a lot of musicians who have turned to Buddhism. Larry Coryell, in his autobiography, places great emphasis on being introduced to chanting by Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, and how this helped transform him from Alcoholism.

And I am often confused about the difference between people (Western Buddhists exactly), who follow a meditation tradition, or chanting or whatever, and those that actually embrace the Religion as an ideology. Personally, I find it a perplexing thing and that devotees can be quite ambiguous about this. So whereas, Buddhism as it is practiced and organised in Countries indigenous to it - is as much cultural as Religious - for Westerners, it seems to float somewhere between 'self help' and actual Religion with a capital R.

I think, in the Tina Turner biopic (at the end), they tended to frame Tina's Buddhism as her solace and self-healing mechanism - to counteract the residual psychic trauma of her life with Ike.

I wonder though, how or if, they would have dealt with it had Tina embraced Islam - or become a Born Again proselytising Christian like Donna Summer?

So in the West, Buddhism has this 'touchy feely' non intrusive, passive, goodwill attached to it, when at it's heart they still try and divine 'god child' beings like the Panchen Lama.

So admittedly it does shit me a bit.

And I quite like the way Social critics like Slavoj Zizek attack this Middle Class Buddhist mindset and the way this plays out in the West .

so your answer is actually: "nothing." thank you.

Just remembered you were working with them, back in the day.

MG

i also was one of the folks who helped introduce Herbie, Wayne and Tina to Buddhism. i practiced for approximately 12 years. interesting that Herbie and Wayne are still going "gung-ho" but i essentially stopped practicing in the early '80s!! in Tina's autobio, which freelancer refers to, she writes about all of that.

[robertoart]

It doesn't really have anything to do with it per se.

However, I suppose I hear of a lot of musicians who have turned to Buddhism. Larry Coryell, in his autobiography, places great emphasis on being introduced to chanting by Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, and how this helped transform him from Alcoholism.

And I am often confused about the difference between people (Western Buddhists exactly), who follow a meditation tradition, or chanting or whatever, and those that actually embrace the Religion as an ideology. Personally, I find it a perplexing thing and that devotees can be quite ambiguous about this. So whereas, Buddhism as it is practiced and organised in Countries indigenous to it - is as much cultural as Religious - for Westerners, it seems to float somewhere between 'self help' and actual Religion with a capital R.

I think, in the Tina Turner biopic (at the end), they tended to frame Tina's Buddhism as her solace and self-healing mechanism - to counteract the residual psychic trauma of her life with Ike.

I wonder though, how or if, they would have dealt with it had Tina embraced Islam - or become a Born Again proselytising Christian like Donna Summer?

So in the West, Buddhism has this 'touchy feely' non intrusive, passive, goodwill attached to it, when at it's heart they still try and divine 'god child' beings like the Panchen Lama.

So admittedly it does shit me a bit.

And I quite like the way Social critics like Slavoj Zizek attack this Middle Class Buddhist mindset and the way this plays out in the West .

so your answer is actually: "nothing." thank you.

Just remembered you were working with them, back in the day.

MG

i also was one of the folks who helped introduce Herbie, Wayne and Tina to Buddhism. i practiced for approximately 12 years. interesting that Herbie and Wayne are still going "gung-ho" but i essentially stopped practicing in the early '80s!! in Tina's autobio, which freelancer refers to, she writes about all of that.

I only half remember the 'tele-movie' with Lawrence Fishburn(?) as Ike.

I haven't read the book.

So did you think of Buddhism as a Religion, or as a form of mind training?

Why did you stop practicing?

I was a Bahia for about four years.

Most regretful and embarrassing move I ever made in life. And I made a few.

Edited January 2, 2013 by freelancer

[robertoart]

There's different kinds of Buddhism.

That's what all the Buddhists say.

[ValerieB]

It doesn't really have anything to do with it per se.

However, I suppose I hear of a lot of musicians who have turned to Buddhism. Larry Coryell, in his autobiography, places great emphasis on being introduced to chanting by Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter, and how this helped transform him from Alcoholism.

And I am often confused about the difference between people (Western Buddhists exactly), who follow a meditation tradition, or chanting or whatever, and those that actually embrace the Religion as an ideology. Personally, I find it a perplexing thing and that devotees can be quite ambiguous about this. So whereas, Buddhism as it is practiced and organised in Countries indigenous to it - is as much cultural as Religious - for Westerners, it seems to float somewhere between 'self help' and actual Religion with a capital R.

I think, in the Tina Turner biopic (at the end), they tended to frame Tina's Buddhism as her solace and self-healing mechanism - to counteract the residual psychic trauma of her life with Ike.

I wonder though, how or if, they would have dealt with it had Tina embraced Islam - or become a Born Again proselytising Christian like Donna Summer?

So in the West, Buddhism has this 'touchy feely' non intrusive, passive, goodwill attached to it, when at it's heart they still try and divine 'god child' beings like the Panchen Lama.

So admittedly it does shit me a bit.

And I quite like the way Social critics like Slavoj Zizek attack this Middle Class Buddhist mindset and the way this plays out in the West .

so your answer is actually: "nothing." thank you.

Just remembered you were working with them, back in the day.

MG

i also was one of the folks who helped introduce Herbie, Wayne and Tina to Buddhism. i practiced for approximately 12 years. interesting that Herbie and Wayne are still going "gung-ho" but i essentially stopped practicing in the early '80s!! in Tina's autobio, which freelancer refers to, she writes about all of that.

I only half remember the 'tele-movie' with Lawrence Fishburn(?) as Ike.

I haven't read the book.

So did you think of Buddhism as a Religion, or as a form of mind training?

Why did you stop practicing?

I was a Bahia for about four years.

Most regretful and embarrassing move I ever made in life. And I made a few.

practicing Buddhism was mostly a very positive experience for me and i feel like i gained a lot during those 12 years. i like to think that i try to live and practice now what i learned and absorbed from my studies in spite of no longer chanting. i would say that i always felt that it was more of a philosophy than a religion for me. mostly the organization is what turned me off. had a hard time to with all the rules and regulations. i've generally never been a "joiner" of groups. i've been told that things have changed within the organization since the '80s but still . . .

[phunkey]

i also was one of the folks who helped introduce Herbie, Wayne and Tina to Buddhism. i practiced for approximately 12 years. interesting that Herbie and Wayne are still going "gung-ho" but i essentially stopped practicing in the early '80s!! in Tina's autobio, which freelancer refers to, she writes about all of that.

That's interesting - in various interviews as well as the foreword to "The Buddha In Your Mirror" Herbie says that he was first introduced to buddhism in 1972 through Buster Williams. Do you know when and why Herbie joined SGI?