mmilovan Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 I like that classic album Dizzy, Bird and Monk made together for Verve, and I will never understand why all people dislike Buddy Rich's drumming on this particular date? Rich was capable soloist and he did fine job supporting this all stars date, in really swing-to-bop manner. What is your opinion? Do you like or dislike Rich on this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 I think Rich always lacked elegance and elasticity, not only on this date. He swings and is technically competent, but he never had that smoothness I admire in the playing of most African-American drummers, and the best whites - Louie Bellson had it, as well as the same technical prowess as Rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Rich was capable soloist and he did fine job supporting this all stars date, in really swing-to-bop manner. What is your opinion? Do you like or dislike Rich on this one? Well, that's the problem right there- "swing-to-bop" was already over by then, and that approach wasn't really relevant to the then-current appraoch of anybody else on the date. I think Buddy gets SOMEWHAT of a bad rap for his work here - I've heard it said that he ruins the date, and I don't think that's the case at all. But he definitely wasn't eh best choice, or even an OK choice if symapthetic accompaniment was the goal. Granz was using Max Roach on some things then. That would have been perfect. In short - nothing really wrong, but nothing really right either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 In short - nothing really wrong, but nothing really right either. Once more you hit the nail on the head, Jim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 He's not the best choice. BUT I think he does throw sparks around and gives the floks what they need. Still, even though I've been a drummer, I don't pay much attention to his work here; there's Bird and Diz and MONK. That's what I listen to and marvel at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 (edited) He's not the best choice. BUT I think he does throw sparks around and gives the floks what they need. Still, even though I've been a drummer, I don't pay much attention to his work here; there's Bird and Diz and MONK. That's what I listen to and marvel at. Though Buddy was truly an astounding drumnastic phenomenon and had some really exciting bands, I would have to say he's never been a favorite of mine musically. I've never really dug his approach to playing time and comping behind solos. Once in Chicago I had the choice of either going to the Jazz Showcase to hear Art Blakey or Buddy Rich at Mr. Kelly's... I ended up sitting in front of Art Blakey all night and was grooved out of my chair! Edited December 28, 2003 by randissimo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 That's interesting. . .I see them both as similar players in a way, flashy and bashy, though I think Bu comped better for soloists and had a more compositional approach to ensemble playing. Blakey as a drummer used to be an inspiration but I don't enjoy his drumming as much as I used to. I probably would have made the same choice in your shoes! But in any case I'd have liked to see both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted December 28, 2003 Report Share Posted December 28, 2003 Buddy Rich was never a favorite of mine but he did a hell of a great job on those trio sides with Lester Young and Buddy Rich! And on some other dates too. Wish Kenny Clarke or Max Roach had been the drummer on that Dizzy/Bird session. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphie_boy Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 I feel the same way as the others - he doesn't ruin the date, but there's that swing-style quality to his playing that just don't fit in the context of the session. Roach would have definitely been the perfect choice for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted December 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 It seems to me I'm alone in digin' Rich on this date - probably it would be more canonic, orthodox straightforward bop with Max or Klook, but, in a way this is more interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted December 29, 2003 Report Share Posted December 29, 2003 I think Rich always lacked elegance and elasticity, not only on this date. He swings and is technically competent, but he never had that smoothness I admire in the playing of most African-American drummers, and the best whites - Louie Bellson had it, as well as the same technical prowess as Rich. Ok, how does this become a race thing? Is this another variation of the "blacks have rhythm, whites don't" stereotype? Are black drummers better than white drummers as a rule? How about individual abilities and experience? Mike, I just find your statement kind of odd. Could you explain what you mean by it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 (edited) I think Buddy Rich is getting a bad rap here. Maybe the combination of technical brilliance in combination with an abrasive personality engenders this and maybe there is an element of racism here in some cases. Nobody seems to criticize the Bird/Diz dates that had Big Sid or Cozy Cole for using "swing" cats when a bopper could have been used. The reality is that Buddy is the drummer here and he is one of the all time great drummers. I doubt if the other musicians were drug by his concept. I think it would be a gas to play with him (except for the bandleader/personality thing). Edited December 30, 2003 by Harold_Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I think Rich always lacked elegance and elasticity, not only on this date. He swings and is technically competent, but he never had that smoothness I admire in the playing of most African-American drummers, and the best whites - Louie Bellson had it, as well as the same technical prowess as Rich. Ok, how does this become a race thing? Is this another variation of the "blacks have rhythm, whites don't" stereotype? Are black drummers better than white drummers as a rule? How about individual abilities and experience? Mike, I just find your statement kind of odd. Could you explain what you mean by it? Right on Leeway, I think there are lot of great drummers of the caucasion persuasion who have an abundance of rhythm! ( Like Deep ).. The thing I have always dug about Jazz is the fact that it has always been to some degree, an integrated music language bringing together musicians of many races. Jazz is not and never has really been exclusively a black thang.. In fact there was a somewhat outrageous statement made by Miles Davis that he could always tell a white player from a black player.. He was proven wrong on a few occasions and has of course had many white guys in his bands over the years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 Nobody seems to criticize the Bird/Diz dates that had Big Sid or Cozy Cole for using "swing" cats when a bopper could have been used. The difference, for me anyway, is that those dates were done several years earlier when the "swing to bop" thing was the vibe of the moment. By the time this date was cut, that vibe had already passed, and the playing of the three principals had subtly but definitely changed to the point where you notice Rich's anachronisms in a way that you don't Cole's or Big Sid's, mainly becasue they weren't anachronisms then.. Which perhaps leads to an interesting question - there's plenty of examples of older players successfully fitting in with more "modern" rhtyhm sections, but how often had the reverse succeded, of even been attempted? Gonna have to put the thinkin' cap on for this one, if I can find it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I would go with Jim's first comment although I'd have to say that seeing him on the Tonight Show when I was a kid didn't endear him to me. His approach strikes me as a me first kind of approach, the music be damned. When he gets into doing music as part of the band and doesn't try to show himself off, he's ok. However, I don't get that impression. A case in point for me is the recently reissued Buddy and Sweets. He's basically doing his thing and I didn't find it very enjoyable. I also don't see him and Bu as peas in a pod. Quite different approach and results for me. I realize you have to be a little bit of performer but I don't see that Art tries to make himself the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 30, 2003 Report Share Posted December 30, 2003 I'm not a Buddy Basher, by any menas. I saw him live once or twice w/his big band, and the power of his music and personality (same thing?) was undeniable. I think he ahd a hard time finding players who could meet him head-on when he was fully unleashed, which is why he so often seems to be overpowering, I think. He was, but not necessarily due to his lack of "taste". He's going all out, compromise be damned, and not too many players were either technically or emotionally equipped to match him. Not that I find the results appealing, because as a rule, I don't. A bit "tunnel vision"-y for me in terms of focus. But I respect the hell outta him for both his chops and his musical integrity. Interestingly enough, a date where he impressed more than the hell outta me was the Groove Merchant date w/Lionel Hampton that resulted in "Psychedelic Sally" et. al. I first heard it on a cheap CD w/no personnel, and besides noticing that Hamp was in peak form, I couldn't help but notice that the drummer was totally kicking the whole bands' ass, and in a GOOD way. When I found out it was Buddy Rich, I was surprised, but only for a second. And, Hamp, btw, was meeting him head-on. That session reinforced two things that I always try to remember, even when it ain't easy - 1)never, NEVER underestimate Lionel Hampton; and 2)Be careful when dismissing Buddy Rich with "incredible chops, just not very musical"-type comments. They may very well be true quite often, but not always, and "not always" is what'll get you thrown in jail in the wrong county, if you know what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 (edited) I think he played more aggressively as a leader than as a sideman, and my suspicion is that his personality followed suit to the extent that as a leader it was HIS way. When a sideman it was a little more give and take (and I'm sure someone like Hamp could go toe to toe with Buddy both in terms of cookin' and EGO). I heard a live recording of Buddy with Tommy Dorsey from around 1946 where he is kickin' the band like a mofo. I didn't know who it was until later, but I was like...who's that drummer? Jim - I concur with your point about the swing/bop thing being more in the air in the mid 40s and I don't think you're a "Buddy Basher"....but I don't know if 1945 or 1954 matters that much to the ears of someone born, say, in 1960. My edit: to those of you born around 1960 or later - if the shoe doesn't fit....etc. ...but I'm sure the shoe does fit for a lot of listeners. Edited December 31, 2003 by Harold_Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimshot Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 I admire Buddy Rich as one of the truly GREAT big band drummers. He had incredible technique and I agree with what was stated before, the music was better when he was a sideman. On this session, the problem was: he just didn't have a feel for the music. It wasn't his taste and it showed. It was kind of like those times when a soprano from the Met is a guest on a TV show and tries to sing a pop or rock ballad. It sounds all wrong, yet the musicianship is undeniable. Buddy Rich wasn't one of those drummers that could sit back and ride the groove at times, he always had to drive it. He did his best work with his hands, his feet were steady. Bop drumming needs a much more organic feel to the feet especially the hi-hat. Great drummer, it just wasn't his style of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Ok, how does this become a race thing? Is this another variation of the "blacks have rhythm, whites don't" stereotype? Are black drummers better than white drummers as a rule? How about individual abilities and experience? Mike, I just find your statement kind of odd. Could you explain what you mean by it? Well, I mentioned Louie Bellson, who is white, and actually this is kind of a quote from an interview with drummer/percussionist Milt Holland in down beat many years ago who said he studied the African-American drummers (he mentioned Catlett) because their playing sounded much smoother to him. I think for the players up to Buddy Rich's generation, he's right; after that the "whites" have catched up - if you look at the Jazz drummers hall of fame thread I started there are about as many white as black players listed. No racism intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrugs Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 random(meaningless?)observation: I have visited various jazz bbs' for over 5 years and rarely have I seen a Buddy Rich thread. In fact, I have seen him mentioned more at audiophile bbs' than anywhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 (edited) Buddy's hardcore devotees are quite rabid and tend to stick to themselves. There's also a lot of them, but you'd not know it unless you went into their world. Maynard's fans are a lot like that too. Those of us who can take or leave either one of them depending on the item in question tend to not dwell on them, because the choice is usually "leave", or at least "remain indifferent". But there are a not insubstantial number of people who really, REALLY dig these guys. Interestingly, though, they tend to not mingle in the realm of small-group jazz as a rule. Whole 'nother world, that of the "big band fan"... Edited January 3, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny E Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 I'm sorry but four on the floor with Monk on piano is simply: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Too much square thought for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.