AllenLowe

well, I've heard it applied most directly to, let us call them, post-modernists like Wilco or Son Volt. I don't really think of anything that old (like the Carters) as alt, since the hillbilly mainstream was pretty complex (thinking 1920-1940).

hmmmm....the alt country movement is very interesting but, to me, unsatisfying because, at the end of the day, they don't seem to really have challenged the basic techniques and assumptions of older country music; I tried, myself, once with very limited distribution, and I think the alt country writing is a problem (lack of deep literacy) and the music (lack of familiarity with extended instrumental techniques). this gives me some incentive. Chadbourne has worked in this direction, as has Bill Frisell (with disastrously bad results); Ribot understands what has to be done. But this is, indeed, another whole topic.

armstrong invented the basic rhythm which led to rock and roll; or he codified it; either way, it is one great-man theory that works. He was as broady influential as Joyce. Something would have happened without him but not in the same way. The way in which he developed the triplet feeling which led to to the common idea of swing (or they way in which he pulled it out of the post-African Diaspoa), and the way in which that triplet feeling relates to the clave, gaves us more than we can count, including Elvis (That's Allright Mama is very Latinate) - re David Ayers, above, I think limitations are irrelevant, though; anything and everything is limited. Charley Patton is limited, yet as profound as anything I've heard in the 20th century; same for maybe 50 other blues and hillbilly players. And 100 rockers whom I think played music as interesting as any other. I know that's not exactly what you are talking about, but it's really less a question of limits than interest.

re- Larry's point, above; and paraphrasing Richard Gilman, the best art is an alternative history, all its own; and as such is, in many ways, much more revealing than those forms of expression which are narrow reflections of only a particular time and place. But let me add that jazz and vernacular music fits my idea of alternative; otherwise we would have things more appropriate for sociology 101 courses then out own listening enlightment. Or works of pure epherema, which jazz, blues, ragtime, hillbilly, gospel, et al are clearly NOT. And hot Ptah - I can accept the point that complexity of expression goes beyond jazz improvisation - though I would stop far short of calling jazz playing only a partial-art; and I would issue a reminder that all that pop music would likely not exist except for the playing of Louis Armstrong. but more importantly, those who embrace Brittany Spears as a prime example of pop complexity really expose the falseness of their arguments and the shallowness of their intellect (I don't mean you but those you are quoting); it is a classic academic exercise to take mediocrity and then rationalize it for 'context' and thus try to elevate it. This is something, too, of a reverse snobbery, which seems to posit that all this pop music cannot make it on its own two legs but needs havy intellectual artillery support. Which is really, really, silly.

to me Mingus was the king of slow; Scott was too maudlin for me.

"It is a masterpiece of spontaneous bebop prosody that Kerouac could only dream of." that is strong stuff; will end up on the book jacket. Are you sure you don't want to amend it?

it's true; I hear he died at bar 31.......

mmmmmm.....beery toe-tappers...........

funny story, proves I'm getting old - about a year ago I was at a conference in NYC and I met a guy whose late father was a well-known saxophonist and I said, sure, I saw your dad play years ago; the guy's last name was Lawrence, and we were talking for about 10 minutes before I realized he was ARNIE Lawrence's kid, not Azar; though I was thinking of Arnie, I kept remembering his name as Azar, and this guy got really annoyed instead of amused. I didn't mean any offense, and I was pretty close, I thought, and at least I was thinking of the right guy.

Heaven's Gate? though I can never figure out why anyone would give money, via Indiegogo. to subsidize rich actors.

in answer to the first question, above, (post edit), yes, this sage advice comes from one deluded-white-guy to another; in answer to Scott, yes, no doubt, he is doing what he likes to do; not unlike Jeffrey Dahmer, who was doing to people what Ben is doing to music.

I'll give it a chance; especially if the white guy is the hero. but seriously it may be a better idea if it takes place with a non-playing Miles, since Hollywood does jazz so badly, and they would have hired Marsalis to do Miles IF he was playing.

in a way that's worse; if he sees this as artistic progreas than he's more deluded than I thought. I realize this seems holier-than-thou, but I liked his playing back in the '90s and now the music is just....de-fanged? de-testeroned? lobotomized? having trouble saying exactly how I find it; it's sort of deluded-white-guy music (there, I've managed to offend every segment of the audience).

agreed, but there is something a little sillier than usual when very up-right white guys look for the groove and make it sound like a bad high school dance band.

rigor mortis.

exactly; you put Ben Allison next to that and it's like a parody of how white people try to monetize black ideas.

I'm probably being over-dramatic; but I just don't get what, other than money (and that's probably enough) drives jazz musicians to intentionally make bad music while convincing themselves that it's good. I'm no purist, in terms of what I like to play and listen to, but there is a certain malleable termperament that I just don't get. i rarely say this is publc any more but I find things like a lot of what Ben is recording to be physically repulsive, meaning my skin crawls when I listen to it (and I don't, btw, include Snarky Puppy in this; whateve I think of their music, I can tell that it's a part of what they are; with a lot of Ben's latest it's feels just synthetic and foreign). And I am sincere about the musicians who have really given their whole lives to producing things that are, for better and worse, pieces of their being. If I am going to listen to pop I'll listen to it played by people who don't sound like they are trying to squeeze round pegs into square holes.

I'm gonna have nightmares now. How many have died so they can play this garbola and call it jazz? Let the jazz audience get old. Musicians, too.What else are we gonna do? I'd rather listen to hip hop; at least that's a direct reflection of someone's true consciousness; this is market-survey music.

funny, I just went to ITUNEs and heard, in succession, some very silly pop-attempts by Ben, by Christian McBride, and Josh Rosenman, all great musicians, and all stuff I haven't heard before, but which makes me reiterate my belief that jazz is, indeed, dead, if people are buying this under that category. I find their attempts at such (and I have sworn to myself not to offer public opinions on my peers, but I can't help it, jeez) - just lame. I'm reminded of what Rick Nelson sang: I'd rather drive a truck. now I gotta go wash my hands. These guys should all know better.

Ben is doing pop-oriented material? I haven't heard him in a long time, but this surprises me. hmmm...listening now on itunes. I don't think I've listened to Ben since, maybe, the '90s.

geez I've been writing catchy tunes for years: https://allenlowe.bandcamp.com/track/love-is-a-memory https://allenlowe.bandcamp.com/track/if-i-cant-be-with-you https://allenlowe.bandcamp.com/track/when-my-alarm-clock-rings-on-central-park-west

1) I do think Snarky Puppy is tired, but not because they don't sound like Ayler. 2) anyone who knows not only what I write and record but what I write about knows I have no ideological preconceptions. The Snarky Puppy clip, to my ears, lacks any realt spirit or reason for being; that stuff wasn't current in the '80s; disagree with me, but be aware that I routinely listen to 90-year old music, so I have no prejudice in favor of any prevailing concept of modern-ness. 3) and I tend to think that now, finally, jazz is dead. Or maybe not.

Snarky Puppy? tired music, I think; but at least they Chuck Mangione to sit in with them....

believe it or not a local restaurant is bringing him into Portland some time soon; too expensive for me, though.

Ches is a good guy and a terrific drummer.