Simon Weil

It's very intense. That's the main difference between guys like Murray and Wagner, to lump them together, and your more average "culture is at the heart of society" guys. They really think everything is at stake if their form of art does not win through. It's quite scary just how intense they are. There is also a parallel to do with degeneration, which is not really present in a lot of your standard preservation movements. The conception of this evil, dreadful, horrible culture-destroying degenerate fake-art is really quite central to both the Lincoln Center view and Wagner (to take one example). This is why Wynton would get so aggressive about avant-garde Jazz/fusion. He felt that it was rotting away at the core of American identity - by pretending to be Jazz when it was not. You get exactly the same stuff in Wagner - except it's German identity. The importance of this "negative ideal" in both the Lincoln Center conception - and Wagner - is one of the most striking parallels between the two. On the other hand, one of Murray's big influences is Malraux - and Malraux was minister of Culture in France when they were doing their Frenchness is to be found in culture thing. So it's pretty likely that Murray was influenced by the French approach. I'm not going to deny that one can make parallels with other guys like that. They both come out of Herder. That's one thing. Murray gets it via Constance Rourke, but probably directly as well. Also he's mad keen on Thomas Mann, who was a Wagner obsessive in his formation. And actually, there's probably some getting in there via Malraux as well. It is difficult to absoutely pin it down, because Murray's not about to destroy his mystique as an heroic elder by going into the nuts and bolts of his sources. But my personal feeling is that the guy hasn't got enough critical distance from whatever sources he's used. Well I'm an English Jew, so what I'm doing talking to you about this I don't know. But, anyway... I do absolutely agree that America has a problem with cultural identity. But, to me, it has more to do with the youth of the nation than anything else. I mean the nation goes through experiences - and the way it reacts to those experiences define and deepen and change its cultural identity. So I mean Big Mac and Coke and stuff like that, archetypally about American consumption, are indeed central to American identity - at least as conceived from this side of the pond. But so are things like optimism, size, dynamism. I think American culture does lack a depth, that's true. But then I don't know it well. But, to me, the main way a culture is going to develop that depth is not by creating great artworks per se. It's, to repeat myself, by dealing with the problems the culture throws up in the course of its development. It may be that art helps in that, by dealing with cultural problems that otherwise elude definition or solution - maybe they can get worked out, to some degree, in art. But I don't think that, say providing images of what it's like to be a great American (as conceived by the artist) helps a great deal unless these images are dealing with the actual underlying problems. The fact the art deals with the problems is what's going to give the art resonance and lead to it being absorbed by society (if you're lucky). The thing about the Lincoln Center is I don't think they give a damn about the underlying problems (social, historical, whatever). They just think that if you create an image of an archetypal existential hero, then society will graciously accept it and get better. Blaaaghh. But I do think society (and society) needs unifying images and symbols and personalities. And, indeed, can't do without them. But they're produced by society as a whole, not one guy or one institution. Simon Weil

He's definitely talking about America as a whole. That's the whole thrust of his vision - derived from Murray and Crouch. They aren't interested in operating in a black ghetto, or anything approaching. Marsalis conceives Jazz as this artform that's been invented by blacks, but has transcended its origin. Q: How closely is jazz tied up with the experience of African-Americans? WM: It's inseparable - in its inception. They created it. But why has who created it become more important than what was created? It has transcended its inception. the ancient Greeks have come and gone, but the Iliad is still here. American Heritage (same interview as above) 1995 He isn't identifying with blacks. They are "they" rather than "we". Who knows what his political views are? He doesn't talk about them. Simon Weil

But there are a lot of versions of this argument. Is it poliitcal? Certainly. But there are differences in how they are political--what they are up to and why. Well it's what I said. It's precisely and exactly that they're trying to save America. "Today, America's only possible hope is that the Negroes might save us, which is all we're trying to do," Murray recently told the New Yorker. "We've got Louis, Duke, Count, and Ralph [Ellison], and now we're trying to do it with Wynton [Marsalis] and Stanley [Crouch]. That's all we are - just a bunch of Negroes trying to save America." Conversations with Albert Murray p96-7 1996 Yeah, but there is a connection and it's this. Wagner saw his art as prophetic. He kept saying that on and on, including the idea that it contained "Germaness" in some equisitely concentrated form. Just add water (or the right regime I guess) and you get Germany as it should be. This is for the Mastersingers of Nuremberg. " ... in the completion and production of The Mastersingers ... I was governed by the idea of offering the German public a picture of its own true nature."/Shall We Hope? PW6 p114 May 1879 And in 1933, Goebbels stated: [The Mastersingers is the] "most German" [opera] - "the epitome of German civilization, embodying everything that helps to make up the the German soul and German cultural awareness." And, for comparison, here's Wynton on Jazz: "The connection between jazz and the American experience is profound. Believe me, that's why the fact that it has not been addressed has resulted in our losing a large portion of our identity as Americans. Because the artform that really gives us a mythic representation of our society has not been taught to the public." American Heritage Oct 1995 They sure as hell look analogous to me. Simon Weil

That's true. But the bottom line about these people is not aesthetic and it's not social, it's political. They are ruthless cultural politicians. Everything they do is calculated towards their end of making Jazz into the national American artform in the sense that it's supposed to contain the essence of America in it. Now, people with a fair amount of knowledge of German cultural history will know that that was precisely what Germans thought about art. Think Wagner, for example (Crouch quotes him in one of WM's sleevenotes). So all Marsalis/Murray/Crouch et al are doing is importing this essentially German view into American cultural life. And if you look at Ken Burns, who came out of the Lincoln Center view and just continues it, he says that Jazz will "save" America. And I kid you not. Once people get into this zone, of thinking that what they're doing is going to save America (or the World or Germany or Mars or whatever damn place is dearest to their heart), it's understandable that everything else fades into the background. But this is yesterday's news. After Burns, their dreams are dead in the water. Simon Weil

Here's a different aspect. The whole thing you get with "the sublime" in Romantic thought is to do with awe, vastness, wonder. But there's also a thing to do with extreme emotions in there - of terror, pain and fear. And, more particularly there's an aspect of violence of emotion. Not, necessarily, of violent emotion, note - but of extremely intense bursts of emotion. Both these things, violence and emotion, create problems in the context of Afro-American expression, because of the stereotype of blacks and violent and emotional, as they don't for art produced by other peoples. So, in my opinion, you can get these things in Afro-American art but you have a real problem articulating that fact. Because immediately you start talking about them, people start thinking about that stereotype of blacks as uncontrolled, emotional and violent - and it just blocks them out from thinking any further. So, I'm quite convinced that Coltrane is a great artist (and I hear his music as controlled) in these final years. But I think the nature of the content of his art in these final years - of its closeness in content to "the sublime" in Romantic art produces real difficulties for its appreciation - because people worry that in talking about emotion and violence they are getting too close to the racial stereotype for comfort. It's like a thing that cannot be said or a zone that cannot be got into. But the fact is Coltrane's later music is like that, it is great, and these things are part of the reason why. And talking about them helps people to understand the music, IMHO. Simon Weil

I wasn't implying that he did. The implication was the certain brands of conservatism that focus on cultural purity and standards in the face of inevitable change have tended to view jazz as a musical plague. Jazz has usually been happy to subvert (unintentionally or otherwise) received hierarchies and narratives. That's part of its great beauty: it tends to do what it wants, and that scares conservatives. I imagine that's probably a big part of the reason Crouch, Wynton, and Co. are so interested in erecting a sort of official jazz historical narrative with its own value scale, canon, and preservationist museums (e.g., Lincoln Center). I sometimes amuse myself with the fantasy that Albert Murray read Adorno's view of Jazz and decided that it was a good idea. Hence Wynton, Jazz as Democratic, the whole Lincoln Center spiel, Ken Burns et al... Just to amuse myself, that is... Simon Weil

Oh, I agree. But truth can be a terrible thing. Simon Weil Maybe the fact that it indeed CAN be terrible makes it such a strong emotional experience to listen to (late) Trane? For me, listening to Coltrane's music - moreso for the later, say, beginning with "Crescent" - has something very personnal, something very moving, emotional. "Truth" is certainly a rather good word in this context, "spirituality" would be another - and this then is a quality I perceive very strongly, although I do not consider myself a person open for spiritual things and experiences, usually. ubu I think he's getting in a zone a bit like "the sublime" in Romanticism (particularly I'm thinking about Romantic painting) as for example in: [High Force or Fall of Tees by JMW Turner] Kind of like "the sublime" coming out of the Afro-American tradition. Simon Weil

Oh, I agree. But truth can be a terrible thing. Simon Weil

I was trying to encapsulate some aspects of late Coltrane for myself and one key word that came up was awe. This is awesome music with the awesome nature front and centre. And, in fact, if you look up awe in the dictionary (or my dictionary) it says "reverential fear or wonder". So there you are... And I do think there is something fearsome about Coltrane's later music, which is not to say that it's not Great, because I do think it's Great. But it's definitely not cuddly. Incidentally, if you google "Coltrane awe", you come up with a hell of a lot of entries, by no means all for this later period. So the awe thing is not an original thought. Though the underlining of the fearsome aspect is. That was just part of his sensibility, in my opinion. Simon Weil

I always assumed they were trying to tell you Albert's beard was the New Grass...Or something. It did seem like a jolly weird cover. A cynical view might be that someone was saying that Albert had it all upside down...Or maybe the world was upside down. Or maybe the designer was from Australia... Simon Weil

I like it too, though I'm hard pressed to see why. It's kind of patchy, but it has a nice vibe. "Quite good", I guess, is how I see it. There's lots of little things that add up - the solo and little arrangement on track 1, the cod-calypso of New Ghosts, the authentic r&b... I agree with Lon that it seems a development of Love Cry. Simon Weil

I wouldn't really call them children. It's a specific, adult mode of behavior that you get on internet (or usenet) discussion groups. There's a particular sort of poster who makes intrusive aggression against others part of their online persona. That is they, partly, come online to spit on people. These are internet "characters" of a certain sort and you always end up paying for them, because by accepting them you effectively accept spitting on people. Quite often they can have quite interesting angles on Jazz (I can think of a few examples) - which makes it hard to decide to get rid of them. They'll always have a few supporters because of it. But really you have to set that against the constant dragging threads down into the mud - which these guys do, and which tends to set the tone of a group. If I were a moderator, I would get rid of the worst offenders. Simon Weil

Albert Ayler: His Life and Music by Jeff Schwartz Albert Ayler website And a very good one.... I may have an article on Ayler coming up at some point. Simon Weil

Yeah, I like Tabnik too. There's something I find quite addictive about his playing. I have "In the Moment" and it is good. Tabnik and a lot of other, I guess you'd call them, Tristano-schoolites, are on New Artists Records. Perhaps this is a Tristano School record label. I've got a sampler of their stuff: "Notes From New York". It's fun - might be a way in for the curious. New Artists Records Simon Weil

That is a lovely movie. Simon Weil

Happy Birthday to the man who made a million (?) and may he do so again. Simon Weil

Happy Birthday to the man who gives politics a (fairly) good name. Simon Weil

All of those early records of the AEOC (or related) have something special about them, but, for me, People in Sorrow has always stood out as 'great'. I've got a LP copy on Nessa and just bought the Pathe Masters one. It just has that weight. Simon Weil

The general view seems to be that Proper boxes have sound that varies with source material. It's generally alright if you're not an audiophile (I'm not). I have the Bechet, Navarro and Hawkins. I think the Navarro is the best - for me an outstanding box. The Bechet and Hawkins I have as resources to listen to bits. The Lester Young I don't have, but won a Jazz Journal record of the year. It's supposed to be very good. Tune selection is pretty good to good on Proper (in my experience). Simon Weil

Agree w/you on that. I think he gives 1965--a huge year in the Coltrane canon--all of 4 pages. And the 1961 VV sessions w/Dolphy hardly get mentioned at all. Curious omissions in an otherwise fairly solid book. Porter's book is a lot better than "fairly solid" IMHO. Loads of good stuff in there. It is soundly written and his style fits your description, but in terms of Coltrane scholarship, it's a Giant Step (Sorry, couldn't resist). It's very hard to write about Coltrane's 65-67 era, just as it is to write about Ayler. Just not being able to tie things down musically (because they went outside standard musicological zones) leaves you up in the air. In one respect, "fairly solid" is a good description of Porter, in that he lacks (IMHO) a certain level of imagination. This allows him to avoid "filling in the gaps" with kind of unabased emotional response - which provides the soundless of the book, but it also means that certain sorts of poetic insight are denied him. Maybe that's what the 65-67 period requires, poetic insight. Simon Weil

I found Infinity used for about $12, about 11 years ago and I like it. But I am a fan of Alice Coltrane and I like her string arrangements. I've got Journey into Satchi(etc etc) and like it very much. But I do think she has a tendency to gloop. Going Home is heading that way, but I still like it. Basically it's (as I read it) her conception of heavy spiritual beauty. I don't think the gloop resides in her string arrangments, but is part of her aesthetic. But one person's gloop is another's spiritual ecstacy. Simon Weil

I have both Cosmic Music (MVJC-19141) and Infinity (MVJC-19159). Infinity is the one with overdubbed strings. I found it gloopy and have only listened to it once. Cosmic Music isn't dubbed. It's a good record, although not in the same league as (say) Meditations. The tracks without Coltrane are not negligible. I got mine from a Japanese dealer through Gemm for ca $20. Simon Weil

I am aware of that, Guy. I just wanted to point out that there is a certain element of "Waiting for Godot " with Wynton, which I myself have suffered from - and that that attaches to a lot of things he does. I was making a general point, but I do also have intuition (bordering on certainty) that Redman won't be able to buck the trend. Simon Weil

In my opinion, Wynton has the knack of creating expectations in his audience. I don't think it's a conscious thing, rather I think it's a character trait. This goes way back to his days as a "Young Lion" - i.e as a promising young player - someone of whom great things were expected. What he's managed to do, all throughout his career, is keep his audience focused on the future. Even while his output has been patchy, he still manages to retain that aura of expectation - both about specific projects and his career in general. He plays on people's willingness to believe. In my opinion the guy is the master of false hope. Simon Weil

What do you call an arab who owns a dairy herd? A milk sheik. (I gave up making up jokes after that)