Simon Weil

I have this and have gone through most of it. There's lots there and it's definitely a worthwhile read. The trouble is he's imported a (I think from memory) particular sociological approach to religion and tries to make his (rich) source material fit that. It doesn't work for me. Perhaps because I prefer a different sociological approach to religion (by Gavin Langmuir). I think his earlier book is better (from flicking through it). Simon Weil

That does look interesting. In fact I just ordered a copy. Thanks Ghost! Short interview with Lopes, where, in fact, he mentions intuition as generating the book. Not to bash on about this or anything. Simon Weil

Jazz has 20 odd years of him ignoring that lesson. Simon Weil

Just to give a slightly different angle on this Wyntonesque thing. He does seem really good at the education thing - and there is that "Marsalis on Music" series where he teaches kids. Maybe watching bits of that (just one prog would probably do) might give you some angle on what they might want you to do - or where they're coming from if they have been influenced by Wynton. It gives an idea of how to talk about Jazz to kids, anyway Simon Weil

I like both the Leonard and the Stearns books. The Stearns was one of the books I read to begin with. But I don't have a signed copy.... Simon Weil

Not being German myself, but familiar with C-European thought, I'd indeed say that although there is an intellectual approach to emotion, that emotion itself is still put above any intellectual exercise. I have had very interesting (and sometimes tiresome) discussions with German ethicists on precisely that; they claim to reason logically, but in the end always fall back on what they call intuition. There probably is a big German philosopher's name to be tagged on that, but I am not that good at the names. The falling back on intuition is something deeply rooted in German culture. I mean it's basically the German romantic view. Million and one guys like that, including Hitler. I have the impression now that Germans react against that in Hitler by trying to be sort of hyper-analytic. But it always strikes me as a weird sort of hyper-analytic behavior. Are you saying it's got this recourse to intuition underneath it? ...I know you're Dutch... Yeah, I think that's about it: "partly needed". I think Jazz criticism needs to loosen up in this area, but at the same time not be overwhelmed by "intuitive" styled criticism. You see, to me, Jazz criticism is not "doing it". It isn't covering the territory properly, articulating what is in jazz in a way that is comprehensible to the outside world - or indeed, I think, to Jazz itself. It's kind of underpowered. And to me those "European" approaches ought to help. I think a bit of intuition can open up some areas so they then can be empirically analysed, for example. Well, actually I think Murray (out of whom Wynton comes) tries to use European approaches quite substantially. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what he's doing. Arrrgghh. In general, I think it is essential to have really top quality Afro-American critics and I think, maybe, they'll have more of a taste for the intellectual stuff. A bit of everything...But make it good. That's about it. Simon Weil

Well, mostly I'm trying to say that the English distrust intellectuals and the Americans are kind of like that as well (as far as I can make out.). So then what you get is a discourse about an American artform (Jazz) in the country that it came from (The US) that distrusts the intellectual approach. That differs from Cubist art (or indeed modern visual art in general) in France, where intellectual approaches were de rigeur - or, I guess, German approaches. By pragmatic I guess I mean in Jazz terms, tending to things you can nail down - say to do with technical analysis of the music. Sort of empirically measurable things, related to the scientific approach - if not exactly that, with something of the same spirit. There's also a kind of distrust of the poetic, intuitive response to art in it. At any rate, I think that there are a lot of things in Jazz that would be looked at differently coming from a European rather than an Anglo-American perspective. Apart from anything else, it might help people understand how great an artform Jazz is if people talked about it in comparable terms to that used for modern painting. Because, currently, Jazz criticism is kind of a weird backwater artistically. Simon Weil P.S. I think loads of people "lead to" Hitler in one way or another...

I kind of like the inevitability component of history that comes to the fore in Jost's writings. Much of what he writes is about how one thing leads to another, leads to the next, and to free jazz in the end. It's an almost Marxist way of writing, but very interesting I find, as it looks for connections where you may not suspect them. As it is, I like this way of writing a LOT more than the hero-worship kind the Burns series presented us. Maybe Jost is coming out of Hegel (Hegel being an influence on Marx), historically necessary personalities... As I said, I didn't really connect with these books - so don't quote me on it, but I think these take up social history at a kind of micro-level, rather than the grand, sweeping macro-level you're going to need to write about inevitability. Also the whole Anglo-American pragmatic view (to which I subscribe in large part) tends to stop people in these cultures writing in that way. But also the inevitability thing has a bad press as a result of Hitler. Simon Weil

I am sorry to sidetrack this thread a bit, but... Garth, are you familiar with the writings of Ekkehard Jost? I have a German book by him titled "Social History of Jazz in the USA," which is really very good. I was wondering whether there are more such social-historical approaches to jazz history. The two books I know about like this are the Peretti Creation of Jazz (mentioned above) and The Birth of Bebop, A Social and Musical History by Scott DeVeaux. I actually find that neither really speak to me, though both seem well-regarded (particularly the DeVeaux), but (surprise): "Your mileage may vary". The current trend in Jazz writing is to treat the music (largely) in aesthetic terms. Simon Weil

As someone who writes large social histories as part of my profession, it is only fair to point out that no one author is capable of writing something as cosmic in its coverage as a "History of Jazz" and end up pleasing everyone. Each one of us will complain that some favorite musician or other has been given short shrift, and therefore we must assume that the rest of the book is worthless. No I'm not saying that (that the book is worthless). Nor am I saying that Ayler is given short shrift. I said Gioia's treatment of him is BS and I meant that it is worthless. Overall, my feeling about Gioia is that he doesn't have the sensibility for the writing about the whole of Jazz in a balanced way. His major area of interest is West Coast Jazz - and his sensibility is likely suited to that. Normally the style he adopts is one of elegance and control, but his treatment of Ayler is just a rant. I conclude that his sensibility fails him with Ayler (and probably people like him). Simon Weil

Not my thing. His treatment of Ayler is BS. Simon Weil

A rec.music.bluenote thread on this very question. Including, even, Rosnes' cousin. Simon Weil

Talking about J.J. Johnson's late groups, Heroes - with Rosnes on piano - is a good record. Play that often. Simon Weil

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Just so people don't miss the wood for the trees, here's the wood: "...wholly free jazz has proven, in sum, to be less than successful...Most audiences today find that free jazz is too random for them to deal with. (It has been suggested to me that one reason for the rise of free jazz was that it was often listened to by people on marijuna highs, which would have made the randomness more tolerable.)...a great deal of free jazz is in fact random...What the avant-garde sometimes forgot was that the first thing that the Lord did was not to pronounce freedom, but to make an ordered universe out of chaos." The Making of Jazz/James Lincoln Collier p476-7 (Papermac 1981) Collier hates free jazz. Simon Weil

Yeah, happy birthday and thanks for a really fine place to post org.org. Simon Weil

"...certain principles run through much of free jazz...[one] is the avoidance of order; if the music seems to be falling into a pattern, some means is usually found to break it." "The music of [the] second generation [of free jazz players][He is talking to a large extent about AACM musicians]...Much of it used principles derived from John Cage and other composers...randomness was deliberately sought." Entry For "Jazz" in 2nd Edition of the New Grove by James Lincoln Collier If you were a music student and pulled out the reference book of record for Jazz, the New Grove, you would find that Free Jazz is deliberately chaotic or random. Collier hates free Jazz and should never have been employed. Simon Weil

I am grateful to Larry for posting this. While I always wondered about Collier as the writer as the main entry (he has a dreadful reputation), it hadn't really clicked with me that there might be something wrong with the Grove as a whole. This is the problem for someone like me, who simply doesn't have the in depth knowledge across a wide range of Jazz subjects. What it does do is help me make sense out of the fact that Kernfeld's "What to Listen for in Jazz" has proved such a useless book to me. Max Harrison is a great writer - It's a kind of a joke to have a real critic like him replaced by churner out of stuff like Collier. But I guess that's the point. Simon Weil

No, man. That is just faaaaaaaaar too complicated. I think I'll wait for the Marvel illustrated version That one does not have any pictures. Cheers! Yeah, well. In order to fully understand this response... Buy a copy of "Band of Brothers" and watch Carwood Lipton's response to Foxhole Norman after FN has got him into a conversation he didn't want to be in and then abruptly walked off. Ah, I love Burns debates. Simon Weil

Yeah, but do you really understand all the criticism? Here's an article I wrote. The Burns thing is tendentious in its very core. Simon Weil

Happy Birthday Johnny. Keep up the good fight. Simon Weil

Sure it has. Because the atmosphere we live in, the intellectual atmosphere anyway, is infused by attacks on the very conception of truth. Right, and the social atmosphere right now is, as above, infused by these attacks on the very 'project of finding "truth."' And, indeed, by putting "truth" in inverted commas, you yourself do something very representative of the social context of now. Au contraire, truth is out there and what you write might be truth, if you get lucky and are sufficiently competent and all that. And what I write is intended to be right, the truth. It may never rise above an interpretation, but damn I'm going to be displeased if that's all it is - or, in fact, that's what it mostly is. Or perhaps it's just going to be entirely interpretation - i.e. complete drivel. But I want to get it right. In the area I know about, being "a productive historian" gets you peer acceptance. If, as now, society doubts that there is such a thing as truth, that effectively undermines the search for truth. After all, there might not be such a thing as truth, so why bother. People decide, then, that they might just as well write their bullshit, sorry interpretation - because, as there's no truth, it's all going to be interpretation anyway. In that circumstance, the fact that one is writing tendentiously - and knowing that one is doing so - might in fact be seen to be a desirable form of honesty. For as there is no such thing as truth, one is being honest with oneself only when one knows one is lying. I think returning to a dedication to truth will allow us to absorb the useful elements of Post-Modernism, of which there are many, and lose the tendency to tendentiousness (above) that I see flowing from a questioning of the concept of truth. Speaking as a guy who loves deconstructing texts. Simon Weil

Absolutely (and I agree about Chris). The basic emphasis has to be on getting it right. That surely has to be one's prime discipline as a writer. And please don't anybody give me that Post-Modern drivel about there is no such thing as truth and everyone's point of view is valid and yada, yada, yada. And it does sound like turf wars, this thing (sorry Brownie). Simon Weil

I think Peggy Lee wrote/sung the songs on "Lady and the Tramp" (incl. Lady is a Tramp) and then there's Louis Prima doing "The Bare Necessities" on Jungle Book with Phil Harris. Perhaps that isn't what you had in mind... Simon Weil

It did sound a bit like that to me, though not exactly seriously meant. You know, 21st Century man's take on Christianity. It was "if you don't go through him" that made me go there, I think - The idea of going through provider x at the expense of all others, brought up Gates. (And I'm using a cross, of all things to illustrate my point). I (the atheist) was gently tweaking you (hopefully gentle, anyway.). Simon Weil