tkeith

Good point. Per the closer discussion, if the scenario is that Pap is going to *save* three games in a row, I'd agree with you. But if we're asking if he's going to pitch in three games where he gets a save, that's a different question. Given that we DON'T know in advance what the circumstance will be, I think you have to play the game for today. If you consider the Putz example, I think it's likely that if he'd entered a close game in the 7th during that two week skid the M's had, pitched 2-1/3, and maybe picked up a W instead of a save, that might have been enough to inspire a listless team. Instead, he was reserved for his 9th-inning role, as the team hopped right in the toilet without a life jacket.

The extra pitchers are coming from other leagues (as we've already seen start happening), and those leagues mostly use the 6-man rotation. It makes sense to adapt to their style and you might be able to see increased quality with more rest (most pitchers perform better on more rest). So you're talking about 28-30 starts for a typical starter as opposed to 32-35. But if you get the same number of quality starts, it might be worth it. I think it's coming, I could be wrong, but I won't be surprised if it happens. I answered your question about what I would do in that scenario. I would use Pap 3 if I had to -- a big league pitcher should be able to pitch 3 innings. He's not going to be available for two days, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. Of course, Goose would go multiple innings multiple days in a row -- it can be done, but it requires a change in mindset. Huh? Not likely. Don't get me wrong, I like what I see in this kid (you had more faith than me, but he's impressed me), but I'm not prepared to say he's going to get *better* than 23 RBI in 100 ABs moving forward. Or am I misreading your statement?

Well spank my ass and call me Charlie! Lookie whose about to got to a closer-by-committee approach: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3522627

You know, Dan, I've got pretty thick skin, and I love to trash talk. If you want to degenerate this into a competition of who can be a bigger asshole, I can certainly come up with creative ways to verbally establish your credentials as a fuckhead, but I'd really rather have a discussion of the topic. If you believe the modern use of the bullpen is correct and effective, that's fine. I happen to disagree, and that's as someone who's played the game quite a bit. Having clearly defined roles in the bullpen definitely makes some sense, but I think the role of 'closer' should be one of 'stopper' as it was in the 70s. LaRussa created the era of specialization out of necessity -- he had a weak pitching staff (excepting one top-notch starter -- Dave Stewart). To his credit, he managed to take an aging, fledgling starter and exploit his weaknesses into a strength by making him a one-inning pitcher. As lights out as Eck was in the ninth, it was the guys leading up to him that did the harder job in most cases. If you have great starting pitching, the 7-1-1 or 6-2-1 format makes a lot of sense. If not, you should adapt. Do you *really* like to see Tito remove John Lester and insert Delcarmen or Timlin into a clutch situation? I sure as hell don't. Number one, I didn't realize you were a card-carrying member of the Manager's union, so my apologies. :rolleyes: Number two, if you want to verbally establish my credentials as a fuckhead, have at it. I couldn't give two shits what you think. Number three, I'd far less like to see Papelbon come in during the seventh inning of any game, because then I'd be left to wonder: 1. Who the fuck is pitching the ninth, or even perhaps the tenth should this game to extra innings? The ninth inning of a tie game or a game that is a save situation is far higher leverage than the seventh inning of a close one. 2. What the fuck is Francona doing, is he going to run Papelbon into the ground by asking him to get five or eight outs? You said it yourself - the guys in front of Eckersley had the tougher job. But they are the ones to do it, or fail at it. You can't ask a closer to cover your ass in the seventh inning and leave yourself open to losing the game in the ninth. You can't use your closer in the seventh inning and risk losing the game or heading to extra innings having to use your worst reliever right out of the chute. The only time the usage pattern may change is during the post-season, when there are no more games to play for. Then you may (as in fact we did) see Papelbon come into a close situation before the ninth. If you get lucky (as in one game we did) your offense puts some runs on the board and Papelbon is safely removed from the game. If not, you do run him into the ground to get that win, and deal with the consequences afterward. Let's flip that situation around, slick. Let's say that Papelbon comes into the seventh inning of a one-run game (regular season), no outs, bases loaded, and preserves the lead. How do you feel when Delcarmen comes in to pitch the ninth, with the same one run lead, and Francona's fall back plan is Timlin? How do you feel about that? You feel good about that situation, Mr. Manager? I'm betting you don't, but then again I'm just a fuckhead. Ignoring your attempts to goad me (I mean, why? Why you gotta be like that?), in your scenario, I let Pap pitch right through to the ninth if I have to (think back to the World Series matchup of Mesa vs. Wohlers, each going 3-innings all out). Yeah, I probably don't have Papelbon available the next two nights, but I've got my key win. If you rely on one guy, you're likely not going to get very far over the long haul anyway. Specialization of relief has hurt the game in a number of ways, perhaps most of all in the length of games. Baseball has done a terrible job of renewing its fan base. Kids, the future fans, and working people cannot stay up till midnight every night following their team. Sox games have always been notoriously long, but long used to mean three hours, not four. This era of specialized relief is just that, an era. It will change, in what way, nobody knows. But nobody was doing this until the mid-late 80s, so it's not like it's set in stone. We'll probably not see the 4-man rotation again (which is a shame) but I wouldn't be surprised to see a change to a Japan-style 6-man rotation (particularly as players from that system become more common in MLB). I would guess that that is when we will see a change in the usage of relievers. If you have to pitch once a week, it's more likely that you'd be pitching 7-8 innings, then the relievers will become less specialized.

You know, Dan, I've got pretty thick skin, and I love to trash talk. If you want to degenerate this into a competition of who can be a bigger asshole, I can certainly come up with creative ways to verbally establish your credentials as a fuckhead, but I'd really rather have a discussion of the topic. If you believe the modern use of the bullpen is correct and effective, that's fine. I happen to disagree, and that's as someone who's played the game quite a bit. Having clearly defined roles in the bullpen definitely makes some sense, but I think the role of 'closer' should be one of 'stopper' as it was in the 70s. LaRussa created the era of specialization out of necessity -- he had a weak pitching staff (excepting one top-notch starter -- Dave Stewart). To his credit, he managed to take an aging, fledgling starter and exploit his weaknesses into a strength by making him a one-inning pitcher. As lights out as Eck was in the ninth, it was the guys leading up to him that did the harder job in most cases. If you have great starting pitching, the 7-1-1 or 6-2-1 format makes a lot of sense. If not, you should adapt. Do you *really* like to see Tito remove John Lester and insert Delcarmen or Timlin into a clutch situation? I sure as hell don't.

I can't stand this sort of shit, but I have to begrudgingly respect the basic point. Example: I had to buy licensing to put Trane's OLE on a disc we released. It's about 22 minutes long. Because of the way licensing works (I had to use Harry Fox for this disc), I had to pay extra due to the length of the song. In total, the them of OLE is stated a total of maybe 2 minutes in the whole tune -- the rest is improvised. Why should I be charged for the parts that our band created? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to pay composers for the use of their music (though I prefer to contact them directly and avoid HFA as much as possible), and using their song as a base DEFINITELY influences the improv. But the licensing rules are based on pop tunes. If you do a cover of Hey Jude, and you ape McCartney's freak-out vocals, you should pay extra. HFA begins charging extra at the 5-minute mark. Cover a Billy Harper tune and you could be on the clock before the end of the opening chorus, and that's not right. (Though, again, I'd be happy to pay BH directly any amount he desired -- I think he's a great writer).

Au contraire, mon frere: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080805 Everytime I see highlights of Street pitching, he looks like a guy that has serious arm issues. As for saves being overrated....sounds like its from the same school of thought that if your OBP isn't high, you are worthless. (Was reading some Keith Law chat where someone asked why there was little love for David Murphy from Law, and the dumb ass said basically who cares about him and his .317 OBP....I guess those 74 RBI's don't mean a thing, he should walk 30 more times, drive in 30 less, and be a real star) Teams that don't have a guy who can "save" the game in the 9th, don't win, period. The Cards would be in first place if Isringhausen hadn't blown 7 saves. If they had Brad Lidge,(0 blown saves this year) they wouldn't be a lot better off??? Sure, but that has more to do with the way they are using the bullpen than it does with the personnel. His example of Gossage (and Fingers, for that matter) highlight that perfectly. Those guys went multiple innings, and with the game on the line, might come in during the 6th. Consider a close game today, say Josh Beckett vs. Scott Kazmir. It's likely there won't be a lot of scoring in that game, so if you have a 2-1 lead and Beckett suddenly gets in trouble after 5-2/3, does it make more sense to go to Manny Delcarmen or Jonathan Papelbon? It's not a cut-and-dry answer, but I'd argue that if Kazmir looks like he's going to be done after 6, I want my best out there to put the lid on a potential big inning *now*. His example of Putz appearing twice in 14 days while his team fell from contention makes this point perfectly. Next to Don Fehr, Scott Boar-Ass and steroids, the LaRussa-ization of pitching has had the worst effect on the game.

Sonovabitch! My fantasy matchup: MY SQUAD -- Olive Smugglers * Olive Smugglers * (24 - 11 - 0) | .686pct Olive Smugglers Hitters Player Opp Status PA R RBI OBP SLG SB-CS HC DPT BB-K Brian McCann @SF Final 4 1 0 .750 1.000 0 0 1 -1 Ryan Howard FLA Bot 6th 3 1 1 .667 2.000 0 0 0 0 B.J. Upton CLE Final 0 0 0 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 Alex Rodriguez @TEX Top 3rd 1 0 0 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 Hanley Ramirez @PHI Bot 6th 3 0 0 .333 .333 0 0 0 -1 Torii Hunter BAL Final 4 1 1 .500 .500 0 0 0 0 Carlos Lee @CHC Final 4 1 3 .250 1.000 0 0 0 0 Nate McLouth @ARZ Final 0 0 0 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 Aubrey Huff @LAA Final 4 0 0 .250 .250 0 0 0 -2 Totals 23 4 5 .435 .810 0 0 1 -4 MY OPPONENT -- The Lost Boys Hitters Player Opp Status PA R RBI OBP SLG SB-CS HC DPT BB-K Kelly Shoppach @TB Final 1 0 0 .000 .000 0 0 0 -1 Albert Pujols LAD Bot 3rd 1 0 0 1.000 1.000 0 0 0 0 Rickie Weeks @CIN Final 5 1 2 .800 .800 0 0 0 0 Adrian Beltre MIN Final 4 0 2 .500 .500 0 0 0 0 Jose Reyes SD Top 7th 3 1 0 .333 .333 1 0 0 0 Manny Ramirez @STL Bot 3rd 2 1 2 1.000 2.500 0 0 0 0 Aaron Rowand ATL Final 4 1 3 .750 2.500 0 0 0 1 Kosuke Fukudome HOU Final 4 1 1 .500 .750 0 0 0 0 J.J. Hardy @CIN Final 0 0 0 .000 .000 0 0 0 0 Totals 24 5 10 .625 .955 1 0 0 0 My Manny trade [Reyes/Manny for Hanley] finally bites me!

Anti-semites! (Braun) Where's Allen Lowe when I need him?

Yeah, but they're fucked! Livan was picked up by the Rox!

Au contraire, mon frere: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/080805

Now you know how everybody else feels.

I'm acutely interested -- can you give me an idea what's on them?

I wondered where Sutton ended up. I always enjoyed him on the Braves broadcasts.

Yeah, except that that's not enough time to correctly and/or effectively make such a change -- particularly if you're dealing with a young pitcher. The change is fairly extreme (noticeable with the naked eye), and no matter how well he did at AAA, we're talking about muscle memory. One more notch against the pitching coach, IMHO. I love Masterson. Watching him work last night, he seems to have altered his release point slightly (it's a bit higher) and it's paying off. He was filthy last night. His delivery reminds me of Smoltz when JS uses the drop-down delivery. Got the right attitude, too, unlike deer-in-the-headlights Buchholz. If Papi goes down, it might well be the demise of the season. On the other hand, they played well without him, and lest anyone suggest Manny had anything to do with that, remember that it was Drew who carried the team in June, Pedroia in July. Manny didn't do shit most of both months (trust me, he was on my fantasy squad).

Buchholz will be okay in time, but in the now, I couldn't agree with you more. You do NOT change a guy's arm angle AT the major league level. Yet another reason I don't like this pitching coach (or Tito, for that matter). I like the idea of bringing up Zink (or Pauley, or Bowden, or Hansack, or frickin' anybody NOT named Clay Buchholz). I hadn't really thought that much about Zink and the added benefit of Cash catching an extra day. That makes a lot of sense (when will they realize that?). Tek brings a LOT to the team defensively, but even with that, I'd like to see him getting at LEAST two days off a week at this point in his career. He may have stunk it up offensively this year, but don't forget the way this team imploded when he went down with an injury. That part of the game is HIGHLY under appreciated. Now, if Papi's wrist knocks him out again, do you give Bailey/Casey, et al, a shot to get it done, or sign an unemployed, overweight, aged free agent?

Wouldn't you know it -- that link is broken. But I checked out the Marley -- very cool. Wish I knew how to operate such technology -- it'd make transcription much easier!

You mean Fred Savage and George Stephanopoulos' love child?

Berigan, maybe you can help me out with something on Skip. What was the bad blood between he and Don Sutton? I was watching a broadcast years ago (pre-marriage, so at least 10) and there was a pitcher who had played with Sutton on the mound (opposing team) who had been accused of throwing a spitter. The exchange went like this: Skip: You played with him, didn't you? Don: I did, I know where you're going and I don't like it, so just say it. Skip: No, I was just wondering... did you maybe show him some tricks-- Don: No! And I don't appreciate what you're suggesting. [a few minutes later] Skip: Are we still friends? Don: We're not friends, we just work together. I've never heard such a contentious exchange in the booth -- not even during Orsillo's first year. My favorite two Skip-isms On 3-Comm park: "Who were the three Com's, anyway; Trotsky, Lenin, and Kruschev?" And just giggling, mute-the-mic laughter from both he and Don when the new park opened. One of the first games, the camera shifted to the bullpen to show Mike Bielecki getting ready to get loose... only he wasn't there yet -- he was pissing in the corner of the bullpen. As for the other bloke -- I didn't like Simpson as a player, but compared to what he brings as an announcer, he was Stan Freakin' Musial as a player!

Damn she was cute! No Diana Rigg, though.

Man! Was it that bad?

I don't doubt that it happened and I do doubt it was the first time. I don't see anything illegal in it; if a player has any decency, he'd tell said agent to get fucked. Clearly, Manny has spoken to his decency. Imagine Cal Ripken sitting on the advice of an agent. Gorman Thomas? Rick Burleson? Tony Oliva? Teddy F. Ballgame? Not going to happen, for *ANY* of them. This guy is an ass, and I can stress enough how happy I am that he's gone -- the last vestige of the Duquette nightmare finally laid to rest.

All of the above. Really, I know you don't want this answer, but you either hear it or you don't. That's not a cut, (neither is your original question, I don't think) it's just the truth. It's bigger than can be explained by words; it's a connection, full and total. If I could explain it, it might not be so. Perhaps Trane was the Messiah.

Yanks were stupid to give up Farnsworth -- that *will* come back to haunt them. I'm okay with the Bay trade, even if they overpaid. Moss is a solid fourth outfielder, but I'd like to see what Carter can do (and he can play 1B). Also, Dan, check out the squad at www.seadogs.com -- there are plenty of solid players coming through the pipeline. Hansen -- good fucking riddance! Pirates did pretty well on this one, their typical get players, develop them, then trade them because we're broke strategy. Dodgers did well for a piece that doesn't really fit. Man Ram can hit and will to try to prove something, now that he's playing for a contract (had to drop his options). I'm pissed that the Sox are *paying* for that, but it's worth it to be rid of his ass. I'd have liked to see Wilson included, but, c'est la vie. I'll second that Sox fans, if they shut up and watch the games, will appreciate Bay -- he's a ballplayer. Unfortunately, the bean-brains in the bleachers will make it difficult if he doesn't bat .450 with 3 2-homerun games the first week. Nothing to be done about that -- comes with the territory. I can only imagine what sort of revenue would be generated by Boston's workforce if WEEI went of the air and those idiots (hosts, callers, listeners) all got jobs.

Good luck with that. Those OFs who can hit ain't going nowhere. My figuring is if you guys hate Manny that much, unload his ass on SF. He's gone, you're happy. Otherwise, I think the BoSox fans/front office/his agent need to STFU....or are full of shit. Or you are using him to get to the playoffs. Either way, the BoSox are either myopic or moronic. Always a pleasure trying to have a conversation with you.