johnagrandy

If you believe what he said in interviews, what he says in various lyrics , especially on "In Utero" tracks, and what friends said about him in interviews and via other sources, then Kurt Cobain of Nirvana qualifies for the above. Injecting 10x the lethal dose of smack for a hardcore addict into your vein and shortly thereafter blowing off half your head with a large guage shotgun is an indication of an extremely troubled psyche. Originally, Kurt was a guy who had learned how to be happy on $4 a day.

You seem to have overall more knowledge of jazz than myself ... but you're so way way off on this one. Woody didn't even have any money and look what bands he put together: Cassandrite Joe Henderson Larry Young Herbie Hancock George Cables Ron Carter Cecil McBee Paul Chambers Joe Chambers The Moontrane Steve Turre Azar Lawrence Onaje Allen Gumbs Buster Williams Victor Lewis Love Dance Steve Turre Rene McClean Billy Harper Joe Bonner Cecil McBee Victor Lewis Little Red's Fantasy Frank Strozier Ronnie Mathews Stafford James Eddie Moore Now's he's got a little money, and look at the monster late 70s / early 80s core Woody touring combo , considered the greatest in the jazz world at the time (Branford even says it on his website -- if you consider Branford an authority). Why? 'Cause every player was a f'ing monster: Carter Jefferson and/or Steve Turre Larry Willis or Mulgrew Miller or Onaje Allen Gumbs (sometimes, I think, could be wrong) Stafford James Victor Lewis (I think Tony Reedus took over at some point in very early 80s) And then you add Dex into the core quartet for a tour or two ??!! Plus, on the Columbia studios, looks who else shows up: Joe Henderson Gary Bartz Rene McClean James Spaulding Curtis Fuller George Cables Onaje Allen Gumbs Tony Reedus Buster Williams Clint Houston Then the more esoteric stuff: Concert Ensemble Rene McClean Frank Foster Slide Hampton Ronnie Mathews Stafford James Louis Hayes Iron Men Arthur Blythe Anthony Braxton Muhal Richard Abrams Cecil McBee Joe Chambers Victor Lewis Woody did just as much if not more than Miles in terms of building highly synnergistic playing units.

Changing the face of music as a whole requires that music as a whole wants to change as a whole at that time Is that true innovation ? For the most part ( until the late 60s (maybe), and the early 70s (for sure) ), Miles didn't invent any trends. Miles fomented macro trends that were already pollinating throughout jazz. He put some of the best collections of the best pieces in place to create elite level music representing those trends and then presented it better than almost anyone else. Powell ... Sun Ra ... Dolphy ... Ornette ... Woody ... Art Ensemble ... Braxton ... these cats actually invented new music. Miles is vastly overrated by almost everyone. Everyone is too scared to say so 'cause then they'll get dissed as being unhip to the hippest man in the history. Time to turn that switch off.

Why do you choose to allude to complex forms of this sort of debate and then trivialize the subject ? Anyway there are some seriously well-listened cats on these boards. Genius isn't obvious ...otherwise it wouldn't be genius would it ? Woody Shaw is the primary musical genius of the 20th century ... and that ain't a white thing. It's a black thing.

So, these must be empirical quantities then. I'd like to see the data that proves this. Anxiously awaiting the bar graphs and pie charts... Complete misinterpretation of my thoughts. In my opinion, Woody invented his own musical language (to use Steve Turre's phrase) for the purpose of expressing the continual intense energy of the diametrical self-conflict and accompanying melancholy that characterizes life as it exists for those who continually question "Why?". The mechanics he invented are fascinating and very relevant to the end result , but the techniques are ultimately only a minor attraction of Woody's music. I don't even understand what he was doing harmonically and rhythmically other than what a few trumpet pros have explained to me. Confidence is borne of success , but confidence is also borne of distillation through a different prism. And Wood's prism was as rare as they come. That he successfully connected the people to his simulataneous recognition of the necessity of and his distate for form and civilization , his simultaneous joy and melancholy at engaging in significant human relationships , his simultaneous belief in a better world along with the knowledge that this lofty goal is mortally fantastical and ultimately self-degenerative, his inner conflict that our instinctual desire to reach outside ourselves and our environment is highly dangerous to the carefully constructed foundation that sustains us ... .... that he accomplished the sublime communication of these deep inner realms during his all too short career places him in a master spiritual plane. In this regard, I place him above even Miles.

That is where you are completely wrong. It may take generations, but eventually Woody Shaw will be seen as a greater innovator than Miiles. Woody invented his own musical world that contained derivatives of the most impossible sources for a trumpet (Dolphy, Tyner, various members of the European classical avant-garde, among many others). His playing has far more fire, depth, intellectualism, and communication of highly complex self-conflicting emotions than Miles' did. And per lifespan year, Wood invented just as many stylistic periods as Miles ... but he was vastly underrecorded and underappreciated. That's one very specific reason why Miles is overrated: because Woody Shaw exists.

That's not the problem. The problem is overmarketing , overexposure , excessive concentration of critical power under too few pens , and agglomeration of too much of the potential listening public onto too few artists and musics. Check out Pandora.com .... they're trying to solve this.

Wait a second ... I know who it is ! It's George Benson !

Clifford, what is the link to the interview on AAJ ?

How do you know he's the greatest ? He's the most well-known, but how do you know he's the greatest ?

You can't. I have everything.

Maybe you need to buy a lot more music by a lot more musicians. And check out a lot more live music. Cats don't obtain stardom just on the basis of talent, there are a lot of "other factors" at work. Ever heard of Henry Butler ? John Ellis ? Will Bernard ? Peter Apfelbaum ? Steve Bernstein ? Josh Roseman ? Phenoms from the 70s scene: Did Pete Cosey or Azar Lawrence ever obtain any fame ? And what if all those amazing dudes had never made it out of Cuba ? And there's probably scores upon scores of jaw-dropping players in Brazil. There's some Balkan dude I can't remember the name of whose plays improvizational music literally all day long every day, stopping only for meals and sleep. He's been doing it for 40 years and effectively invented a unique musical form. And what about Flamenco ? Are we only supposed to listen to Paco de Lucia and not learn about anyone else ? What about guys like Larry Vukovich (KK's house pianist) who has played with very many of the greats but no one has ever heard of outside of hardcore jazz circles ? What about all the guys who quit the business 'cause they couldn't make any bread ? What are we supposed to do, spend our entire paychecks buying every single recording with Miles on it because the critical jazz community and the mainstream media considers him the unquestioned XXL superlative heavyweight genius of 20th century jazz ? Oh, and if it's a duo including John Mayer with a jazz great it must be really really good , right ? Especially if they're playing the music of Ray Charles. I listened to so much Miles, 'cause I thought I was supposed to, that I don't even wanna hear "My Funny Valentine" ever again. Not even on Valentine's Day. Miles only did genius level work in the late 60s and early 70s. The rest of his work in various genres over the years is outclassed by a number of other, superior, players.

How can "one of the greatest ever" be "vastly overrated"? As for the Starbucks customer, he may know the name, but he certainly doesn't know "all about Miles". I've been a jazz fan for over 40 years and this business about Miles' "lack of" technique is older than that. There may be trumpeters who can execute passages faster and cleaner, but nobody made music as compelling as Miles. I would liken Miles to a great actor, a dramatist, who can move audiences not by technical bravura, but with a great sense of drama and pacing. Every time I hear his version of "Stella By Starlight" on "My Funny Valentine", I am reminded of what a brilliant musician he was! Because he **is** vastly overrated by the general public. Just like Luciano Pavorotti is. Just like Zucchero is. Just like Jerry Garcia was. Just like Sting is. Just like Bono is. Just like Johnny Cash was. Just like Ray Charles was. Just like B.B. King is. Just like Stevie Wonder is. Just like Herbie Hancock is. Etc. Etc. Etc. It goes on and on forever. All of these are massively talented musicians who exist/existed in the absolute upper echelons of their art -- but because the non-specialist in a given musical genre never hears most of the other talents in that genre, these icons' public personas vastly overstate their relative abilities. It's part pure commercialism: wanna make some bread? Put out a Miles tribute album. They may have never heard of "you", but they sure heard of Miles. When I talk about technique , I'm not talking about Wynton Marsalis technique. I'm talking about intense dynamic flow of melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, spiritual, and emotional ideas in a specific style. Hard bop wasn't Miles' primary forte. He in fact was in the upper echelon in the improvisational realm and was one of the overall greats on the horn, but as for burning hard-bop, he couldn't touch early Diz or Fats or Brownie or Lee or Freddie or Woody, or modern guys like Payton etc. I don't think Miles' music was the pinnacle of "compelling". He doesn't speak to me anything like Woody or Lee does. But that's a personal thing. And it might be partially due to overexposure. Miles might have been the right man in the right place throughout his life (not so much by accident, but more by savvy choice). That may explain a lot of the reknown. But there is no question he is vastly overrated by the general population.

I keep on telling you guys , Haas, Skerik, and Dillon have this dire situation well under control. No reason to call 911 anymore .... nor rip off all your clothes jump out of your car and contort yourself into delerium tremors in the midst of rush-hour traffic. http://www.thedeadkennygs.com/ tour in progress ... Bay Area soon : Feb 16 Santa Cruz Feb 17,18 SF At last, an application to very good purpose for old useless delapidated soprano saxes.

Specifically ? Some specific examples (which include studio recordings): 1) His playing on "Directions" (March 7, 1970, second set). Particularly from 9:37-10:10. 2) His playing on "Right Off" (A Tribute to Jack Johnson) 3) His playing on "What I Say" (December 19, 1970) 4) His playing on "Miles Runs the Voodoo Down" (Bitches Brew). In particular the second solo. But listening to any of the recordings from that period, particularly live, gives the same general impression. Guy But that's not bop, or hard-bop , or post-hard-bop , or out , or any other style.... those are examples of harmonic dispersion that guide or reroute the music's direction. He was propelling the music and the band , not innovating a continual stream of iterrelated ideas that built on the preceding. Just because his range popped way up in that period up doesn't mean anything. (BTW, leaned way over the mike to get the mouthpiece up over the upper lip so as to hit the highs).

Specifically ?

I started my jazz listening career as a Miles collector ("Milestones" = #1 LP I ever purchased) but I never put any Miles in my player anymore , except for the electric stuff when I'm trippin'. I listen to Lee every day. Miles was one of the greatest ever but he is vastly overrated by the general population and that is reason enough to listen to others. How many Miles tribute albums are there? It's ridiculous. Every guy who bought a latte at Starbucks knows all about Miles. BTW, what's this John Mayer thing ? Now Herbie pairing up with him , following Sco's lead ...

Yeah, get the Keystone Bop stuff. Also, during that era you can find Freddie playing amazing improvs as a sideman on many many LPs. I don't have a list right now 'cause all mine is on vinyl and I don't know what's available. Plus, the VSOP stuff was great. Do you have Red Clay and Straight Life ... ? Those two will wear out your player.

No comparison to Morgan ????? My jaw is dropping in disbelief. Talking about playing horn, Lee Morgan could incinerate Miles anytime anywhere. Miles was an great innovator , a great bandleader , a great judge of talent , a melodic player with a superior sense of time and space but he wasn't anywhere near the league of Diz or Fats or Clifford or Lee or Freddie or Woody in terms of ideas or execution on the horn. And charisma .... well I'm too young to have ever seen Lee live, but I heard he was something else in person.

These were mind blowing shows. I've never seen Sco play better. And the audience knew it too. Not that Goldings and DeJohnette and Holland weren't on fire, they were, especially Goldings support for Sco ..... but Sco was playing outside of the realm of the possible. I hit the floor a couple times. It was that good. Sco does all this other stuff and so people forget that he might be the most innovative and exciting improviser in jazz today. I hope this live date is anywhere near the quality of those nights at Yoshis.

I find that a little bit difficult to believe ... I can't even listen to the Fillmore live sides or Pangaea Agartha anymore it's so intense. It blows my mind and I have to stop.

For a player who had one of the most beautiful sounds (maybe the most beautiful) in the lower and especially the middle registers, it was really too bad he got caught-up in the upper register obsession. I mean , on a good night , Hub could even play above double C all night .... .... he wasn't a Faddis or a Sandoval or a Ferguson (that is, huge volume and sound and playing technically correctly) but he could play up above double G consistently and mix these impossible notes into fast-paced improvs. In his prime, he had the best overall register of any of the great improvisers on trumpet. But more than once I saw him walk on stage after the head (allegedly with no warm up) and pop a double-C to start .... not too smart. If you listen back on the Blakey sessions, Hub would frequently flub upper register stuff - he'd recover quickly, but it could sound bad. He was pushing too hard. You listen to a player like Lee or Woody and they rarely attempted anything out of their assured range. Then in the 70s on the CTI stuff, something happenned and he could do all these trick lip trills and his upper register was a little thin but much more consistent, then by the 80s he was a monster all over the horn. I've read Freddie went to some of the best embouchure / endurance specialist teachers in the world in an effort to regain his chops, but to no avail. I wonder when someone does the Freddie bio if he'll reveal all. There are a lot of crazy rumours out there. But like I said, I think it was long-term physical deterioration. I mean, look at Diz in the 40s and then the 50s. His chops basically self-destructed in 10 years. Sure, he learned how to play a different style, but when you listen to his tone in the 50s you can hardly believe it's the same player.

Exactly. Freddie in the early-mid 80s might have been the baddest m/f in the world. His stage presence alone was worth the price of admission. There are those few who exist in another universe and all you can do is wonder how they aspired that high. Freddie said when he was coming up he used to never go to sleep, non-stop practicing. That's why life must be so sad for him now. Despite all the ugly rumours, Freddie's downfall was probably trying to play too high too loud too many years with a lower-middle register embouchure. He used powerful airflow to do it but introduced so much scar tissue into his lips that it's impossible for him to play anymore.

Let us know about that LP ! Woody in SF in the 70s was a mysterious period for him.

The slower tempo is precisely what I like about this version. Lee really has time to build some great melodic ideas and he plays several great bridges! The slower tempo also allows the rhythm section to double up the feel (as they do during the piano solo). It certainly has its own merits. It really is amazing. I keep on replaying it. Pepper, Bobby, Paul, Philly ... it's an absolute gem. Plus, Lee's tone at the best I've heard. Yeah, I think that bridge at the end is one breath.