The Magnificent Goldberg

You're definitely wrong there, Guy. Lots of jazz albums got onto the Billboard pop or R&B charts in the eighties. I've got a list of 388 by 131 artists... MG Interesting list, which suggests my claim was somewhat hyperbolic. But if you were to construct similar lists for other decades, my suspicion is there has been a decrease post-1980 (and I would guess the 1990s and 2000s totals are even lower than the 1980s you compiled. Jazz these days is much less relevant to popular culture than it was 50 years ago. Definitely. I said in my post that there were fewer jazz albums on the charts in the 90s (though still quite a good number. But yes, the number has been coming down since 1979 (which I think was the peak year since 1955 - though the charts have more records on them now ) It occurred to me the other day that, back in the fifties and sixties, there were loads of pop instrumentals on the singles charts - not just by jazz musicians like Bill Doggett, Johnny Dankworth (!), Jimmy Smith and Jimmy McGriff - but by pure pop or R&B musicians like Duane Eddy, the Ventures, Johnny & the Hurricanes, The Mar-Keys, Booker T & the MGs, the Shadows, Sandy Nelson, Bent Fabric, the Surfaris, the Tornadoes and a host of others. I don't know whether instrumental pop singles still make the charts but I very much doubt it and it seems to me that the decline of the pop instrumental has actually got something to do with the decline in young people's interest in jazz. If people don't hear instrumental music (good, bad and indifferent) as a regular and natural part of their cultural diet, jazz isn't going to mean much. MG

I'm not quite sure why you appear to regard (and may do in reality) someone's moving from Snarky Puppy to Thelonious Monk as progress. I'm sure most Snarky Puppy fans wouldn't regard that as progress, any more than I regarded my buying a handful of Thelonious Monk albums as "progress" from Willis Jackson. I don't think people's minds work like that. MG

A whole lot of vintage (and popular)Tommy Dorsey recordings weren't "watered down" anything. As for Glenn Miller, if there was a "watered down" aspect to his band, that wasn't the main reason it was widely popular. There were lots of semi-polite but non-"sweet" bands around at that time; the Miller band was hugely popular because of its distinctive sound, the quality of its execution, and its large number of catchy originals. A latter-day partial comparison might be to the Brubeck-Desmond recording of "Take Five." It wasn't/isn't popular because it's "watered down," it was and is popular because it's catchy/infectious and, for those who care/notice, has a very nice Desmond solo. Well, I reckon those bands were watered down in comparison to Cab Calloway. But OK, where do we see the present day jazz bands with a distinctive sound, quality execution and a large number of catchy originals? Maybe that's nearer to Kenny G than to Vijay Iyer (though I've heard neither). MG I don't see present day jazz bands with a large number of catchy originals. Some of the present day jazz bands have a distinctive sound and quality execution, but not catchy originals. Would it kill these present day musicians to write something like "Song For My Father" or "Watermelon Man"? Apparently you think that writing 'something like "Song For My Father" or "Watermelon Man"' is essentially a matter of will or intent. I think there are plenty of people who would like to write pieces that had that kind of effect on audiences if they could, but it ain't easy -- in particular, it's not a matter of simply putting aside one's supposedly snotty-complex "high art" habits of music-making.I'm not sure I believe that. Most jazz musicians can write melodies when they're soloing. Solos are mostly melody. MG Aside from Chu Berry's solos, I'd much rather listen to a swatch of T. Dorsey recordings than a swatch of C. Calloway recordings. Though there are exceptions, by and large Calloway's band -- both in terms of material and execution -- could be rather scrappy/woeful at times. Now if we're talking about Hines, or Basie, or Lunceford, or Ellington or Chick Webb, not to mention Goodman, Shaw or Bob Crosby.... See, I vastly prefer Cab Calloway to any of those other bands you mentioned. I guess it's because I'm a fan of black popular music, rather than a jazz fan per se. MG

A whole lot of vintage (and popular)Tommy Dorsey recordings weren't "watered down" anything. As for Glenn Miller, if there was a "watered down" aspect to his band, that wasn't the main reason it was widely popular. There were lots of semi-polite but non-"sweet" bands around at that time; the Miller band was hugely popular because of its distinctive sound, the quality of its execution, and its large number of catchy originals. A latter-day partial comparison might be to the Brubeck-Desmond recording of "Take Five." It wasn't/isn't popular because it's "watered down," it was and is popular because it's catchy/infectious and, for those who care/notice, has a very nice Desmond solo. Well, I reckon those bands were watered down in comparison to Cab Calloway. But OK, where do we see the present day jazz bands with a distinctive sound, quality execution and a large number of catchy originals? Maybe that's nearer to Kenny G than to Vijay Iyer (though I've heard neither). MG

I see Kenny G is still getting albums on the pop charts this year. Must be that the 40-50 year olds are having a nostalgia attack. Jazz doesn't have to be creative to be jazz. It doesn't have to be good music, either. And it's allowed to be watered down, too. The Dorsey Brothers were watered down. Glenn Miller was VERY watered down. People liked it like that. And still do. The 'jazz community's' insistence on quality is the curse of jazz. MG

Leo Sayer John Hanning Speke Chris Chataway

Veronica Lake Sam Rivers Billie Poole

You're definitely wrong there, Guy. Lots of jazz albums got onto the Billboard pop or R&B charts in the eighties. I've got a list of 388 by 131 artists : 2 Ahmad Jamal 5 Al Dimeola 7 Al Jarreau 1 Alex Bugnon 3 Alphonse Mouzon 1 Andre Previn 6 Angela Bofill 3 Bill Summers 2 Billy Mitchell 1 Blackbyrds 11 Bob James 1 Bobbi Humphrey 1 Bobby Broom 2 Bobby Caldwell 2 Bobby Mcferrin 1 Branford Marsalis 1 Brecker Bros 1 Charles Earland 2 Chick Corea 5 Chuck Mangione 1 Cleo Laine 1 Damon Rentie 9 Dave Grusin 2 Dave Valentin 3 David Benoit 2 David Grisman 7 David Sanborn 1 Deodato 1 Diane Reeves 1 Diane Schuur 1 Doc Severinson 1 Donald Byrd 1 Dr John 9 Earl Klugh 1 Echoes Of An Era 1 Ernie Watts 1 Fattburger 1 Frank Barber Orch 1 Fuse One 1 Gary Bartz 2 Gene Dunlap 8 George Benson 8 George Duke 6 George Howard 2 Gerald Albright 5 Gil Scott-Heron 9 Grover Washington Jr 1 Harry Connick Jr 1 Harvey Mason 1 Heath Brothers 7 Herbie Hancock 5 Hiroshima 2 Hubert Laws 1 Jaco Pastorius 5 Jazz Crusaders 5 Jean-Luc Ponty 6 Jeff Lorber 1 Jeff Tyzak 3 Joe Sample 1 John Bolivar 2 John Klemmer 3 John Mclaughlin 5 Kenny G 1 Kirk Whalum 1 L A Boppers 6 Larry Carlton 2 Larry Elgart 6 Lee Ritenour 1 Lena Horne 2 Lenny White 1 Leon Redbone 1 Locksmith 2 Lonnie Liston Smith 6 Lou Rawls 1 Madhouse 1 Maurice White 2 Maynard Ferguson 1 Mccoy Tyner 1 Members Only 5 Michael Franks 3 Miki Howard 8 Miles Davis 4 Mtume 2 Najee 5 Narada Michael Walden 2 Noel Pointer 3 Norman Connors 2 Passport 9 Pat Metheny 4 Patrice Rushen 6 Patti Austin 1 Paul Hardcastle 1 Paul Winter 6 Pieces Of A Dream 3 Quincy Jones 1 Ralph Macdonald 4 Ramsey Lewis 6 Randy Crawford 1 Ray Charles 2 Regina Belle 1 Rickie Lee Jones 2 Rippingtons 1 Robben Ford 5 Rodney Franklin 1 Ron Carter 4 Ronnie Laws 7 Roy Ayers 1 Sadao Watanabe 2 Santana 2 Sergio Mendes 11 Spyro Gyra 3 Stanley Clarke 3 Stanley Jordan 2 Stanley Turrentine 1 Stephane Grappelli 1 Sweat Band 1 Terri Lyne Carrington 1 Tim Weisberg 5 Tom Browne 2 Tom Scott 1 Tuck & Patti 1 Vince Guaraldi 1 Walter Beasley 1 Wayne Henderson 6 Weather Report 2 Webster Lewis 1 Wilbert Longmire 1 Will Downing 3 Wilton Felder 6 Wynton Marsalis 3 Yellowjackets (I've cut stuff by the likes of Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, numbers of various artist and film soundtrack comps.) Now you can say that there's not much jazz in so and so's work, but that's the point, I think - there WASN'T a serious disconnect between jazz and popular music in the eighties. Even in the nineties there were between 200-250 jazz albums charting. What you got was a spectrum from jazz-ish, to very hardcore jazz. MG

Allen Lowe plays Toni Braxton MG

Sonny Knight Quartette Sir Charles Thompson I K Dairo MBE

Sweet William Salty Dog Sourpuss

Is that an album cover? Really looks just like a photo of a guy standing outside a record shop. MG

Christopher Tolkien Christopher Robin Bonnie & Clyde

Yes, I put a track in one of my BFTs a few years ago. I had a quick look around (but not e-bay) and found there's a new and a second hand copy on Amazon UK, but the prices are bleeding ridiculous - £44.86 2nd hand ($75.43); £49.99 new ($84.06) Plus postage. Keep searching - and there's another WBD on Jazz Connaisseur with Plas Johnson £24.23 second hand. Cheapo MG

I think it's Clifford singing. Back in the VHS days, I had a few songs he did at Antone's. But I never compared the CDs with the video - they've always been in different rooms - so I can't be positive. MG

One has to wonder why the sleeve on the sand is an album by Lester Lanin... MG

Willie Tee Earl Turbinton Richard Tee

The Headhunters Michael Foot Clyde Ankle

Hot Ptah's response to one of the tracks on BFT122 ('Who is Clifford Scott?') led me to start this thread. Clifford Scott, also known as Joe Splink, was one of the great Texas tenor players, was born in San Antonio on 21 June 1928. He died in 1993. He worked with Jay McShann and Amos Milburn in the late 40s, then joined Roy Miltons great band, The Solid Senders, in 1952. In 1953, he was with Lionel Hampton and toured Europe with him, recording in France. This is out on BMG: He returned to Roy Milton in 1955 and later the same year joined the band in which he was to make his name. In January 1956, Clifford first recorded with Bill Doggett, with whom he remained until 1962, putting his individual stamp on such hits as 'Honky tonk', 'Hold it', 'Slow walk', 'Leaps and bounds', 'Ram-bunk-shush', 'Rainbow riot', 'Monster party' and 'Yocky dock'. Bills band recorded a much wider range of material than their hits reveal and it was with Doggett that Clifford started paying alto sax and flute. While with Bill, Clifford was called upon by King, for whom the band recorded, to play on various sessions by other R&B acts. One of the first was the first session of a new singer, James Brown, at which his first classic hit, 'Please, please, please' was recorded. He also played on Browns 'Try me'. During his period with Bill Doggett, Clifford got the opportunity to record as a leader. His first session, in 1958, featured a young Andrew Hill on piano. He recorded again as a leader in 1960. No albums were made but I think the material appears on a compilation with some Lynne Hope recordings. After he had left the Doggett band, Clifford made a couple of sessions with blues guitarist Freddie King, then moved to Los Angeles. On the coast, Clifford made an entirely different set of recordings. He appeared on albums by Carmel Jones, Vic Feldman, Marvin Jenkins, Groove Holmes, Lou Rawls, Jimmy Witherspoon and Charles Kynard. In this period, he got another chance to record as a leader. Starting with the wonderful LP, 'Out front', backed by Les McCann Ltd, Clifford made three LPs for Pacific Jazz, none of which have been reissued. He also appeared on Billy Larkin & the Delegates second album, 'Blue Lights', another magnificent album that has been reissued by Fresh Sound: He worked with Onzy Matthews in 1964 (the material is in the Mosaic Select), then Della Reese, and rejoined Bill Doggett briefly in 1965. He joined the Ray Charles band in the late 1960s (Ray always liked to have Texas tenor players in his band) and played on the 'My kind of jazz' album. In the early 70s, Clifford returned to Texas, where he lived for the rest of his life, a regular at Antones, only emerging occasionally, as when he toured Europe in 1986 with Wild Bill Davis. Davis album, 'The Zurich concert', is one of the few bits of extended Scott available. Finally, back in Texas in the early 1990s, Clifford made two albums, with a high R&B content, with his regular band for the French label New Rose. This player should be more widely appreciated. The only bit of praise I've seen for him is from the Groove Holmes album 'Something special' in which John William Hardy describes him as sounding 'like Gene Ammons on a GOOD night'. OK, that's typical hype - not even I think he's THAT good. MG

Oh yes, please. I promise not to spill the beans. MG

The Goof I Al Cohn