Rooster_Ties

Which reminds me- how is our ol' buddy hardbop doing, anyway? B-) You just know he's lovin' this. Damn it, Free For All, I was just about to say... "not over hardbop's dead body!!" - will they let anything electric in that hall. But seriously, probably not if Wynton has anything to say about it. /

Some choice samples from the lawsuit. Look for the red arrows...

By the way, I really hate Wal-mart. (Almost goes without saying, but I thought I'd say it anyway.)

from: Rolling Stone Wal-Mart Wants $10 CDs Biggest U.S. record retailer battles record labels over prices Wal-mart wants every CD you buy to cost less than ten bucks. And the nation's largest retailer -- which moved a quarter of a trillion dollars' worth of goods last year -- usually gets its way. Suppliers who don't accede to Wal-Mart's "everyday low price" mantra often find their products bounced from the chain's stores, excluded from being sold to the 138 million people who shop at a Wal-Mart store every week. In the past decade, Wal-Mart has quietly emerged as the nation's biggest record store. Wal-Mart now sells an estimated one out of every five major-label albums. It has so much power, industry insiders say, that what it chooses to stock can basically determine what becomes a hit. "If you don't have a Wal-Mart account, you probably won't have a major pop artist," says one label executive. Along with other giant retailers such as Best Buy and Target, Wal-Mart willingly loses money selling CDs for less than $10 (they buy most hit CDs from distributors for around $12). These companies use bargain CDs to lure consumers to the store, hoping they might also grab a boombox or a DVD player while checking out the music deals. Less-expensive CDs are something consumers have been demanding for years. But here's the hitch: Wal-Mart is tired of losing money on cheap CDs. It wants to keep selling them for less than $10 -- $9.72, to be exact -- but it wants the record industry to lower the prices at which it purchases them. Last winter, Wal-Mart asked the industry to supply it with choice albums -- from new releases from alternative rockers the Killers to perennial classics such as Beatles 1 -- at favorable prices. According to music-industry sources, Wal-Mart executives hinted that they could reduce Wal-Mart's CD stock and replace it with more lucrative DVDs and video games. "This wasn't framed as a gentle negotiation," says one label rep. "It's a line in the sand -- you don't do this, then the threat is this." (Wal-Mart denies these claims.) As a result, all of the major labels agreed to supply some popular albums to Wal-Mart's $9.72 program. "We're in such a competitive world, and you can't reach consumers if you're not in Wal-Mart," admits another label executive. Tensions are not as high now as they were last winter, but making sure Wal-Mart is happy remains one of the music industry's major priorities. That's because if Wal-Mart cut back on music, industry sales would suffer severely -- though Wal-Mart's shareholders would barely bat an eye. While Wal-Mart represents nearly twenty percent of major-label music sales, music represents only about two percent of Wal-Mart's total sales. "If they got out of selling music, it would mean nothing to them," says another label executive. "This keeps me awake at night." Wal-Mart would not directly comment on tensions with the labels, but Gary Severson, Wal-Mart's senior vice president and general merchandise manager in charge of the chain's entertainment section, did allude to the dispute about music prices. "The labels price things based on what they believe they can get -- a pricing philosophy a lot of industries have," he says. "But we like to price things as cheaply as we possibly can, rather than charge as much as we can get. It's a big difference in philosophy, and we try to help other people see that." Virtually no industry executives would publicly comment about their company's relationship with Wal-Mart. But off the record, many record-industry executives shared their concerns. "I don't think there is a music supplier in America who really enjoys doing business with Wal-Mart," says one major-label rep. No one in the music business ever expected Wal-Mart to become the most powerful force in record retailing. In the past, the business was shared among smaller local and regional chains such as Musicland, which once had an estimated ten percent of the market. But as Wal-Mart and other national discount operations such as Target and Best Buy have grown -- approximately half of all major-label music is sold through these three -- an estimated 1,200 record stores have closed in the past two years, according to market-research firm Almighty Institute of Music Retail. Last February, Tower Records, with ninety-three stores, declared bankruptcy and is now up for sale; Musicland has already changed owners, with many local outposts shuttered. Wal-Mart is like no traditional record seller. Unlike a typical Tower store, which stocks 60,000 titles, an average Wal-Mart carries about 5,000 CDs. That leaves little room on the shelf for developing artists or independent labels. There's also scant space for catalog albums, which now represent about forty percent of all sales. At a Wal-Mart Supercenter in Thorton, Colorado, for example, there were no copies of the Rolling Stones' Exile on Main Street or Nirvana's Nevermind. While most of the latest hits were priced at $13.88, some records -- from the O Brother, Where Art Thou? soundtrack to the latest by Yellowcard -- were displayed for $9.72. Says Severson, "Paying fifteen dollars for a piece of music is a difficult value equation for customers." For the music industry, having such a dominant retailer is like being stuck in a bad marriage. Whereas traditional music retailers took advertising money from the labels to push new releases in Sunday newspaper circulars, Wal-Mart barely advertises locally. It relies on national campaigns, where it promotes its own low-price policy. "Wal-Mart has no long-term care for an individual artist or marketing plan, unlike the specialty stores, which were a real business partner," says one former distribution executive. "At Wal-Mart, we're a commodity and have to fight for shelf space like Colgate fights for shelf space." In the same way that Wal-Mart made it difficult for local mom-and-pop retailers to compete with its low prices, it has hurt smaller music stores. "When you're buying CDs for twelve dollars and selling them for ten like Wal-Mart, it makes the rest of us look like we're gouging the customer, when we're not," says Don Van Cleave, head of the Coalition for Independent Music Stores, a retail consortium. "It's supertough to compete with that price point." Even online, Wal-Mart sells songs for eighty-eight cents, compared with ninety-nine cents at the market leader, Apple iTunes Music Store. Getting Wal-Mart excited about carrying a record is at the top of every label's to-do list, but it's harder than it sounds. There is an immense cultural chasm between slick industry executives and Severson's team of three music buyers at Wal-Mart headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas. Only one of the three had ever worked in music retailing -- until that person moved to a new division in August and was replaced by someone who previously bought Wal-Mart's salty snacks. (Wal-Mart also relies on buyers at its two distribution companies, Handleman and Anderson Merchandisers, who purchase records as well as stock the Wal-Mart stores.) "Content-wise, Wal-Mart is limited about what they sell," says one label chieftain. "Wal-Mart is Middle America's shopping headquarters, with different buying habits and consumer tastes than those who live in Manhattan and L.A." When founder Sam Walton christened the first Wal-Mart in 1962, music was never a priority -- it wasn't an everyday, easy-to-stock product like light bulbs, since the Top Ten changed so much. The chain also had specific objections to music. Walton wanted all stores to remain family-friendly, and in the rural South, rock & roll had the potential to turn away many customers. In 1986, the Rev. Jimmy Swaggart led one such campaign to ban music from Wal-Mart, saying rock fostered "adultery, alcoholism, drug abuse, necrophilia, bestiality and you name it." Albums and magazines about rock (including Rolling Stone) were temporarily pulled from the Wal-Mart shelves. Wal-Mart's wariness about music ended once the music industry adopted a voluntary advisory sticker on albums deemed to contain adult language or sexual content. Today, before any new album is released, someone at each label is charged with asking, "Do we have any Wal-Mart issues?" If an advisory sticker is placed on an album, the label will put out a clean version about ninety percent of the time. Since the edited version of a hit record usually averages only about ten percent of a record's total sales, they do it mostly to keep Wal-Mart happy. Wal-Mart has loosened up a bit, too. Eminem's albums, stickered or not, are not carried by the chain, but it does sell the 8 Mile soundtrack. And it carries an edited version of 50 Cent's debut. Since the labels are so adept at self-policing, though, censorship controversies are now rare. "There have been examples in the past, but it's not a current issue," says Severson. Wal-Mart has also urged the labels to create exclusive new products that would lower music prices. In a short-lived test, Universal excerpted seven songs from existing albums by acts such as Sum 41 and Ashanti and sold them at Wal-Mart for $7. Few other labels wanted to participate. "They proposed it to a bunch of artists and managers, but everyone was worried that we are sending a message that instead of the sixteen-track album we sold, those nine extra songs were filler," says a label executive. Some record executives think they can survive Wal-Mart's push. They argue that the hottest acts will always command a premium price. "50 Cent sold 7 million copies," says one rep, "and I guarantee that many of those sold for fifteen, sixteen dollars." And they believe that Wal-Mart will want to carry those hits because they draw customers. "If they can't find a record at Wal-Mart, people will go elsewhere," says one executive. "We should play hardball." But each label is watching the others to see if any make major concessions to Wal-Mart's demands for lower prices. A label that gives in could gain shelf space at the expense of another. "If you lose an account, one of your rivals could get more product in the store and get one up on everyone else," says a major-label rep. "You have to tread cautiously." The tug of war between the labels and Wal-Mart isn't going away soon. The chain is aggressively opening new stores -- fifty-seven in October -- including some in urban areas. So unless it makes good on its threat to cut back on its music section, it will continue to grow as the top record store and become even more powerful. Laments one industry rep, "There is some impending doom associated with us not helping them." Price War: Does a CD have to cost $15.99? Major labels insist that the low prices mass retailers such as Wal-Mart and Best Buy demand are impossible for them to achieve. But Best Buy senior vice president Gary Arnold counters, "The record industry needs to refine their business models, because the consumer is the ultimate arbitrator. And the consumer feels music isn't properly priced." Labels point to roster cuts and layoffs as evidence that they can't sell CDs cheaper. This breakdown of the cost of a typical major-label release by the independent market-research firm Almighty Institute of Music Retail shows where the money goes for a new album with a list price of $15.99. $0.17 Musicians' unions $0.80 Packaging/manufacturing $0.82 Publishing royalties $0.80 Retail profit $0.90 Distribution $1.60 Artists' royalties $1.70 Label profit $2.40 Marketing/promotion $2.91 Label overhead $3.89 Retail overhead WARREN COHEN and STEVEN KNOPPER (Posted Oct 12, 2004)

Has anybody ever seen the book?? I used to have this CD, years ago, but don't seem to anymore. (Guess I traded it, though I don't remember specifically doing so.) I'm guessing the movie would have been pretty interesting -- shame that it was lost.

Hmmm.... Very interesting. Anybody know??

I used to, but not any more. My favorite Coleman is his work with Dave Holland --- usually as a sideman with Holland leading, though occasionally the other way around. Over the years, since about 1996 (but especially since 1998 or 99), Osby has really outshown Coleman, at least for me --- and particuarly when I compare their recordings as leaders.

Absoutely, at least from my perspective (too). I like Garrett, don't get me wrong. But Osby's output interests me far, far greater --- for all the reasons that ADR states in what I've quoted.

Same deal as the "favorite tenor" thread, but only pick your favorite ALTO players that are currently under the age of 50 (born after 1954). My clear first-choice (unless I'm wildly forgetting somebody else), has got to be... Greg Osby (born Aug. 3rd, 1960). In particular, he could nearly do-no-wrong in my book from about 1996 to 2002. I haven't "loved" either of his St. Louis Shoes projects (both the studio date, and the live one), but they're still very good in their own way -- even if Osby's going in a different direction that I'd personally prefer. Who are your favorite alto players, that haven't yet turned 50???

Oh shit, here's another name that definitely needs to be on the list -- and I've got several of his discs, and some sideman dates of his too. That's Greg Tardy. I've heard him twice here in Kansas City, leading his own groups. And he's played and recorded with Andrew Hill quite a bit, ever since Hill's "Dusk" from 2000. Tardy's a monster, and should be much better known. I have three of his discs, and all three are great!! I don't know when he was born (not in the AMG, no bio either ), but he can't be any more than 35 years old, at the very most. And probably closer to 30, would be my guess.

I haven't been blown away by his own recordings (at least the two I've heard, but haven't bought -- just sampled and/or borrowed and listened to). But I heard him once (live, with Dave Douglas), and was blown away. He was subbing for Chris Potter, and was reading most of the music -- but still did an incredible job, especially given the complex charts Dave had at the time (his "Magic Triangle" piano-less quartet, that kind of material). But come to think of it -- I don't really have much Mark Turner on disc (any??) -- but he left such a strong impression on me at the time, I guess I've held him in higher reguard than perhaps the recorded evidence would justify. (A buddy of mine is a big Mark Turner fan too, so perhaps that's rubbed off on me too.)

Mike, you need Gary Thomas on that list. He was born on June 10th, 1961 (according the AMG). And looking through all the names mentioned so far in this thread, I'm torn between saying Gary Thomas and Chris Potter (they're tied for my #1 slot), and I'd rank Mark Turner and Ravi Coltrane nearly up there too. Speaking of which... how the hell could we have missed Ravi Coltrane up until this point in this thread???? OK, my top four are Thomas, Potter, Turner, and Coltrane (Ravi). (And hey Mike!! - For your list, Ravi was born on Aug. 6th, 1965 -- again, according to the AMG.)

I was born in March of 1969. Do the math.

I'm curious who else you might have said, had Murray been born a couple years earlier (meaning had he already turned 50 a couple years ago). In other words, would you care to offer up another name for us?? (though you are hereby officially on record as being strongly in Murray's camp -- which I'm not trying to dispute in any way). Who's your second choice?? (Humor me, thanks!!)

On first glance, I'm tempted to say Gary Thomas (born June 10th, 1961), but I probably need to consider some other choices before I decide on a final choice. Or maybe Chris Potter (born on New Years Day, 1971), perhaps -- though it's funny that I really like Potter a great deal in some contexts (in Dave Holland's quintet, and with Dave Douglas), but not as much in others (Potter's own recordings, or at least those I've heard - though I probably need to hear more). I'll have to mull it over some more, and see what other names come up in this thread.

Thought about starting a poll -- but figured it'd be more fun if the question was open-ended. Who's your favorite tenor-player on the scene today, but he (or she) has to have been born after 1954. Discuss... (When in doubt, allmusic.com has birth-dates for most musicians, or at least most of the best-known ones.)

Thanks for all the info, everybody!!! Hey Jim (Sangry) --- can you double-check the LP notes of "Do Right" again, and see if there isn't some reference to him being a Social Worker?? I could have sworn that's where I read it (or a "nurse" of some type). There were several paragraphs of text (at least 200, maybe 300 words total), on the "Do Right" jacket. I had them typed up at one time (and posted to the BNBB), but the BNBB's long gone, and my hard-drive done kicked the bucket about a year ago too. Thanks Jim!!

Afraid I'm due at another appointment shortly. Anybody else wanna give their search engine a try for me??? I just tried a couple crude attemps, and got nowhere. Won't have any more time to look into this until late tonight. Thanks in advance for any help or further info anyone can provide. Thanks a bunch!!!!!

OK, that just leaves getting the info for both of Tyrone's dates as a leader (the non-BN dates). Sangry has the last one, and the middle one is here (from an eBay auction, too rushed for time to type it up this moment)...

Here's the Stanley Cowell date... Stanley Cowell -- Brilliant Circles Olmsted Sound Studios, NYC; September 25, 1969 Stanley Cowell - p; WS - tp, mar; Tyrone Washington - ts, fl, cl, mar; Bobby Hutcherson - vbs; Reggie Workman - b, el b; Joe Chambers - dr.

Here's the Heiner Stadler info, for another session with Tyrone that I've never heard before... Heiner Stadler - "Brains on Fire" 12/01/1973 Reggie Workman Bass Tyrone Washington Sax (Tenor), Flute Dee Dee Bridgewater Vocals Garnett Brown Trombone Joe Farrell Sax (Tenor) Joe Chambers Drums Don Friedman Piano Jimmy Owens Trumpet Heiner Stadler Composer, Main Performer Barre Phillips Bass Lenny White Drums (Sorry for the formatting consistancy issues -- I'm just doing some Q&D cut-n-pastes from other sources. We can clean things up into a more consistant format at some later point.)

OK, here's the Roswell Rudd LP, which I just found the info for on-line... Roswell Rudd - "Blown Bone" Phillips RJ-7490 J rec NYC 3/26/76 3/27/76 Enrico Rava-tp; Roswell Rudd-tb,mbira,sanza,perc; Kenny Davern-cl,ss; Steve Lacy-ss,perc; Tyrone Washington-ts; Patti Bown-p; Wilbur Little-b; Paul Motian-d Jordan Steckel-bata d; Sheila Jordan-voc Anybody besides Sangry have this one?? I've never heard it. What a line-up!!

Hey Sangry!! Can you provide the complete sessionography data for Tyrone's 3rd date as a leader (that LP I sent you a couple years ago). I still have a burn of it - but lard only knows where I put the info for it. (Tune titles too, if you have the time - much appreciated!!) Also, don't worry about typing up all the liner-notes from Tyrone's 3rd LP, BUT I think I remember that there were a couple important biographical details in there too, about what had become of him by '73 or '74. Can you provide a Q&D recap for me/us?? Thanks a bunch!!! Also, Sangry, I think you are the only expert (at least around these parts) about probably close to half of Tyrone's entire post-1970 output. For instance, I've never heard the Henry Stadler date(s?) with Tryone, and isn't there a Roswell Rudd thing with Tyrone too?? - his last known recording, if I remember right, circa 1977 or so. Jim, the floor is yours...

OK, I was just looking this up anyway -- so I might as well plant the info here, with the beginnings of a quick and dirty sessionography for Tyrone. From the BN discograhy, 2001 edition, Tyrone Washington appeared on the following BN sessions... Horace Silver - "The Jody Grind" Nov. 2nd & Nov. 23rd, 1966 w/ Woody Shaw (tp), Larry Ridley (ba), Roger Humphries (dm), and Nov. 23rd only: James Spaulding (as, fl). Larry Young - "Contrasts" Sep. 18th, 1967 w/ Hank White (flh), Herbert Morgan (ts), Eddie Wright (g), Eddie Gladden (dm), Stacey Edwards (cga), and for one tune only: Althea Young (vo). Tyrone Washington - "Natural Essence" Dec. 29th, 1967 w/ Woody Shaw (tp), James Spaulding (as, fl), Kenny Barron (p), Reggie Workman (ba), Joe Chambers (dm). plus two sessions that are (as yet) unreleased -- and are both listed as "rejected" in the 2001 BN discography. Jackie McLean - unreleased/rejected session (5 tunes recorded) Jul. 5th, 1968 w/ Woody Shaw (tp), Bobby Hutcherson (vb), Scotty Holt (ba), Norman Connors (dm). Tyrone Washington - unreleased/rejected session (5 tunes recorded) Aug. 16th, 1968 w/ Herbie Hancock (p), Herbie Lewis (ba), Jack DeJohnette (dm).