Milestones

Dan, Yes, I have heard several of these tracks, and certainly they are good. It looks like for nearly everyone here, Benson lies beneath jazz consciousness!

Basie had some long small-group jams during the Pablo years, such as "Bookie's Blues" (but maybe that was live). I do like a lot of what Miles did in the early fusion years. Bitches Brews was my first jazz record, and In a Silent Way and Jack Johnson were not far behind. Very much dominated by long tracks. Second after "Bitches Brew" (the track) is "Spanish Key."

I really like how this thread has taken off. I haven't seen much mention of avant garde stuff. I do have some minor interest in avant garde, but pretty minor indeed. On another Forum altogether I found there was a bit too much raving over avant garde artists. The long, long stuff by these artists is something I rarely find compelling. But that's me.

I'm sure that many would agree that Benson is a fine jazz talent who has never played enough jazz--or at least not in a long time. Nothing wrong with his singing; I sometimes find it appealing. It's more the over-produced records and the inevitable pop orientation. Even when he has seemingly tried to return more to jazz, the results are uneven. Case in point is the new Guitar Man. The title alone suggested it might satisfy those who want to hear Benson play jazz. The guy has chops galore and sounds so smooth....in a good way, when he gets into a stripped down situation. But this record is a pretty advanced production, with plenty of vocals; and do we really need more versions of "Don't Know Why" and "Lady in My Life"? Still it may be worth while just for "Tenderly," "Naima," and a swinging "Paper Moon." The only Benson record I've heard that verges on a masterpiece is Beyond the Blue Horizon. Man, does he burn on "So What," and plenty of good stuff follows. I have heard my share of 60s tracks with Ronnie Cuber, which are good but perhaps too basic and limited. I know that another poster had posed a "what if?" here--what if Larry Young played on those sessions. In any case, I will continue to listen to Benson, but so far I'm having trouble finding 60-70 minutes of first-rate stuff I could listen to over and over again.

For Coltrane, I'd go with "Africa": 16+ minutes. Of course, there is a lot of long stuff by Trane, especially if you get into the live recordings. I'll grant that Ascension is monumental, but also very challenging.

A few of you are going under 15 minutes and some are offering live tracks. But that's fine...a little rule breaking is fine. I apologize for what seems a dismissal of blowing sessions, mainly from the 1950s. Some of these are quite good, such as Burrell's "All Day Long." True, these long jams are generally not my thing. But for those who find them excellent, they are just that. This topic is all about favorites. "Walkin" by Miles is pretty much a blowing tune, and it creeps near 15 minutes. I absolutely love that track.

Yeah, Mingus was one of the great ones is this area. Of course, I've broken my own rule, as all the versions I have heard of "Meditations on Integration" are live. I also like "Parkeriana," which showed up at many of the same concerts (also "Orange").

I'm thinking of at least 15 minutes. A jazz tune doesn't even really merit "long" when it's at 10 minutes or so. But I would put on restrictions here. One would be live performances, where tunes are often stretched to twice (or more) their studio length. Another would be jazz suites. For example, A Love Supreme could be considered a suite. Also, I would personally avoid long jams. I know there was a period when Prestige would put out side long jams every now and then. Only a few of these have merit, and very few could be considered genuine classics. I think of tunes that are unusual and complex in structure. Here are some that come to mind: Free Jazz--Ornette (about 36") "Meditations on Integration" (about 24")--Mingus "Bitches Brew" (27")--Miles Concierto de Aranjuez" (about 16")--Miles "African Sunrise" (about 20")--Randy Weston "Search for the new Land" (about 15")--Lee Morgan Two Folk Songs" (about 20")--Pat Metheny

I think one of the best early albums was The Cooker, a quintet with Pepper Adams.

"Tagi" is an interesting piece, but it's not on my copy of Mirror.

I've heard about (more than heard) Lee's work near the end. I'm guessing he was moving toward a sound something like Bitches Brew. I don't know the case with Lee Morgan's late music, but I don't usually go for really long tracks (15-20 minutes) unless they are structured very creatively. "Search for the New Land" is a long piece that certainly works.

I'd say his two most beautiful ballads are "Ceora" and "Twilight Mist."

And "Monk in Wonderland" as well.

I do have the title track of "Evolution," and I like it a lot.

How about some thoughts on Lee Morgan? I know a lot of us are big fans of Blue Note in the glory years, and Lee Morgan was certainly a big contributor--with some good stuff already in the 50's when he was a teenager all the way up to the end of his brief life in 1972. I used to be a big Freddie Hubbard fan (and I still am), and Hubs was all over Blue Note (and other labels), though more as sideman than leader. With Morgan, I do like many of his records, though he probably never shifted much toward the avant garde, unlike Hubbard and so many others. There are exceptions, such as the title track of Search for the New Land. I really like Tom Cat, which sat in the can for many years despite the fine tunes and the presence of Jackie McLean, Curtis Fuller, and Art Blakey. It's probably a draw between trumpeters when considering their work with the Messengers. I am still in something of a discovery mode. Morgan sure did put out a lot of work on Blue Note.

On my last go-around with Mirror, the first few tracks sounded good, but it largely lost something as I got deeper into it. I don't have Athens Concert or Sangam--both rather different projects.

Why leave good stuff in the can? At least Blue Note put out a a lot of stuff later. Apparently ECM very rarely does this. True, I'm not about to tell them how to run a business, but the issue of previously unreleased tracks/albums is fun and sometimes quite enlightening.

I'd like to get this kicking again, as I do like Charles Lloyd quite a lot. I'm much too young to have been into him, or into jazz, in the 1960s, so I'm largely responding to his ECM albums, especially those since about the turn of the century. Parts of Lift Every Voice are spectacular, and I thoroughly enjoy Rabo de Nube--a really fine live album. I did see Lloyd once in concert, and this record seems to reflect this rather well. I was somewhat disappointed by Mirror, especially since I found Jason Moran to be such a great fit in Lloyd's group. I understand there is a just-released (or about to be released) duo CD of Lloyd and Moran. I would like to hear that.

That's a shame, because you can look at Blue Note and consider how many first-rate records didn't come out until 20 years after recording.

I do like how DeJohnette has been willing to incorporate electronic stuff on his records, such as on Parallel Realities and even more so on the duo with Frisell: The Elephant Sleeps but Still Remembers. I also recall him doing some weird thing to the drums on some parts of that record he cut with Bruce Hornsby (not so sure that worked). Jack is also a pianist of some note, and not many drummers can claim that.

Really? Do we have some unreleased stuff coming? I don't have much Jack DeJohnette with Miles outside of Bitches Brew and Live Evil.

I think Jack DeJohnette is one of our great living artists, and I was delighted to see him celebrating his 70th birthday at the Tri-C JazzFest last year. Interestingly, the group featured Don Byron, who played some amazing clarinet on the opener, "One for Eric"--but then pretty much played tenor thereafter. I don't think Jack played anything off his new album, but instead relied on his classics, like "Blue" and "Ahmad the Terrible." I believe Jack once said that his style is essentially a combination of Elvin Jones and Tony Williams. He is probably the first who comes to my mind among living drummers. He has played with everyone; and whatever your opinion of Keith Jarrett (I'm a moderate fan), you have to admit there's a lot of great DeJohnette to be heard in this trio. Jack is probably underrated as composer and group leader. I've heard a lot of his records, and I especially like the ones on ECM. I know the label recently brought out a multi-disc set of his "Special Edition" records, of which the first (with Arthur Blythe and David Murray) is the best; but I have heard them all, and I think this was some of the most creative music of the time (late 70's/early 80's).

Well, I'm pretty new to Organissimo, and while I have looked at the older thread, the heart of it was years ago. There was eventually some weird some stuff on Zawinul regarding Hitler as a hero, and then the thread virtually stopped in the middle of 2010.

What do people think of "Live and Unreleased"? I've gotten the impression these are the best WR live recordings, at least among those that are relatively easy to obtain. I know that it contains performances over a period of about 8 years.

Yeah, that's a fine website. I had not seen it before; thanks for the recommendation. All groups and artists should have a website like this.