Milestones

Ok, let me add that I threw in Zawinul because he did compose a lot, he is admired by a fair number of fans, and he is more modern than the big names like Ellington, Mingus, and Monk. I would also point out that he was usually the dominant composer of Weather Report, which is interesting when you consider Wayne Shorter's lofty status as composer. We could make an interesting turn on this thread and discuss who has emerged in the last three or four decades as a major composer whose works are frequently recorded by other jazz artists. Are there any such figures? If so, why not? Even Andrew Hill's stuff is not covered a lot, but didn't Nels Cline do an entire tribute?

OK, I'll admit to misreading the statement on Hutcherson, Young, Rivers, etc. Still, I would say that Hill leaned in this slightly avant garde direction and was a more prolific composer than them and arguably more ambitious. I will also readily admit that in the 1960s Blue Note did get away from the more basic approach of the 1950s. But you could certainly say that of jazz in general.

I'm not asking about stylistic comparisons. You could probably take any two jazz composers and find it's like comparing Bach to Stravinsky. The Silver/Hill comparison is about the sheer volume of compositions produced by Silver and Hill on Blue Note. I would be shocked to learn that anyone else did as much composing on the label. Of course, we could talk about "quality" all day long. While I'm sure opinions vary greatly on Hill, I can't imagine anyone saying he was a run-of-the-mill composer. While I find their work respectable and often quite interesting, I'm not at all prepared to put Hutcherson, Larry Young, Joe Henderson, or Sam Rivers in the same category as Duke, Mingus, Coltrane, Weston.

Your thoughts on Andrew Hill as the greatest Blue Note composer. I mean this primarily in terms of the sheer quantity of his stuff--sticking exclusively to his own work and very rarely remaking/revisiting tunes. To me, it seem that Horace Silver is the only possible rival. Of course, there is Monk and Nichols, but neither recorded much for the label. Perhaps Shorter and Mobley would get some nods. Of course, quality is a prime factor as well. I like that Blue Note (at some point, at least) strove to emphasize original compositions, but you have to admit a lot of it is very "basic" stuff. By and large jazz's greatest composers recorded little or nothing for Blue Note--Ellington, Mingus, Coltrane, Weston, Golson, Gillespie, Zawinul.

So why is it that when I type "Andrew Hill" into search, only my new forum comes up?

Because maybe there is nothing wrong with NEW discussion. And there is certainly OLD stuff out there if you're talking about ANDREW HILL GIGS.

I’m curious to hear what people have to say about Andrew Hill. By most accounts, he is a major figure, and he was certainly highly prolific on Blue Note. He did spend quite a bit of time in obscurity, before a comeback period shortly before his death. I do have some of the later stuff, such as Dusk and the big band album; but principally I have focused on the 60s Blue Note years. The Mosaic box with various groups is certainly quite good; the tracks with strings are among the best stuff I have ever heard in this vein. I also have a fondness for the nonet album Passing Ships, which sat in the can for over 3 decades. Of course, there are the long-standing classics like Point of Departure. I doubt that few would doubt his significance as composer and band leader. I notice that he always featured his own compositions—every track of every album, even Lift Every Voice which you’d expect to be traditional spirituals. He hardly ever revisited songs. I don’t think there’s another Blue Note artist who can match that compositional dominance; perhaps only Horace Silver comes close.

Just curious about edits, no more. I know it has happened. For instance, the Doors’ “Light My Fire,” though I wasn’t into music back then. When I later heard the piece, it was the whole song. But once I did hear on the radio the 3-minute version, and it seemed to kill the song! I never knew until recently that Chuck Mangione’s “Feels So Good” runs 10 minutes. This surely is the not the version spun everywhere in the late 70s; I swear every person in the country knew this song! Do we see cuts in recent smooth jazz tracks? Are there shorter forms of Kenny G songs? It seems like I’ve heard of Blue Note tunes from the 1960s being cut down. It would make sense for “The Sidewinder” or “Watermelon Man,” though I don’t know if it happened to those two in particular. I just wanted a little history on this.

Yeah, this sure brings back memories. I started in jazz back in 1981. I bought a few records by Miles, Coltrane, and John McLaughlin, then started seeing a ton of those twofers around. I was instantly a huge fan of Miles, and there were a lot by him--I think the first was Workin' and Steamin', which did exactly replicate two albums from 1956. There was Tallest Trees, a bit of a hodge-podge, but how great to have all the tunes with Monk and Milt. And Tune Up. A little later I remember finding a twofer of Miles' Blue Note sessions from 1953-1954. I picked up Monk and Rollins and Wes and Bill Evans...all kind of stuff on Prestige and Milestone. I didn't have as many from Blue Note, though I did purchase a used Little Niles, which featured that great early album and some other nice stuff from Weston; only rather recently was I able to re-duplicate most of this on CD (the Mosaic set). Yes, those were lovely days of record buying.

I recently had a listen of Peckin' Time and I have time to say I'm among those not impressed. But I have pretty much been hearing for the first time such records as No Time for Squares, Roll Call, Soul Station, and the 1955 Mobley quartet with Silver and Blakey. That's some really fine stuff.

Cleveland wins a wild one...in extra innings.

But now they're pretty much breaking it open: Cleveland-7 / Texas-1

I'm curious to see what the Indians do in the second half--some think Francona will be the difference maker. They have not looked good so far. They have a 3-1 lead tonight against Texas, which is a formidable opponent. Just tuning in now and then. I see the Indians have another 2 errors, and Texas scored without even getting a hit. At the start of the season, I would have said this is one of their best defenses in years; yet they seem to commit 2 or 3 errors every game.

I don't know about that contention (BN longer than Prestige). Example: Rollins' album Rollins Plays for Bird runs over 43" and Saxophone Colossus is about 40". His Blue Note record Newk's Time barely passes 33."

Is that right? It's been so long since I've dug out an old Blue Note on vinyl that I don't recall that....well, now I vaguely do.

Maybe I looked through this too quickly, but has anyone mentioned Dave Douglas? While he is often considered adventurous--and he certainly comes up with many diverse projects--his roots in tradition (in trumpet and in jazz generally) are very strong. I like what I've heard of Ralph Alessi; should check out his work more. I liked the playing by Duane Eubanks on his brother Kevin's recent album.

Just out of curiosity, would it be accurate to say that Blue Note produced higher quality sound than what was found on, say, Prestige and Riverside and even Columbia? The Blue Notes always seemed to have shorter running times. As Magnificent Goldberg suggested, apparently you could only allow the running time to go so long before losing quality.

Is that the book by Art Taylor? Interviews with a lot of great figures in jazz.

Alzheimer's/dementia is horrible indeed. My late mother suffered from it for about 3 years--in a major way ('m sure it had set in before then). Many others get bad cases that can last as long as a decade.

God, there are so many great live recordings...this could certainly be another topic altogether. For starters, here is some stuff that I just find essential: Miles Davis in Europe (plus much else by Miles) Great Concert of Mingus Coltrane at Vanguard Monk at Town Hall Blakey at Birdland Duke at Carnegie Hall VSOP quintet En Route--Scofield Jazz at Massey hall Randy Weston at Monterey Playing--Old and New Dreams Rabo de Nube--Charles Lloyd Full House--Wes Montgomery ...it could go on endlessly...

Yeah, clearly control and being able to capture better sound is something you will get by working in the studio. Some of those early live albums are pretty dismal in audio quality (yet others are fairly good). But then there is the flip side of the coin--capturing a fantastic band in concert. I wasn't around during the great years of Blue Note--at least not as a mature listener aware of jazz and with the means and money to see these artists (born in 1960; didn't own a jazz record until I was 21). As Mark Stryker points out, it would be great to have live documents of those bands.

I'm still trying to see if there is an answer to the basic question. Why did Blakey have so many live releases, when everyone else seemed to have, at best, one?

Really? When did the Hancock get released? Oh, I was thinking of Night of the Cookers for the Morgan/Hubbard tandem, though I don't directly know that record either.

True. Doesn't that have Hubbard on it as well? But it's not a record I ever owned or heard.

I find it interesting that there are so many live recordings of Blakey's Jazz Messengers. While there are classic studio records like The Big Beat and Moanin', I imagine most of us think of the live records on Blue Note as his main legacy. By comparison, other barely did any live recordings. I think Horace Silver did just one (then a second about 3 decades after the fact). I can't think of any live recordings (on Blue Note) by Hubbard, Morgan, McLean, Henderson (prior to State of the Tenor in the 80s), Hancock, Shorter, etc. Anyone know why this was the case?