A Lark Ascending

Four years ago when this thread first started I mentioned Phil Robson. He's gone from strength to strength - I've seen him twice this year, once in a quartet with Dave Liebman, once in a trio matched with string quartet. Seems to play in any context from jazz-rock through free-form improvising to the BBC Big Band! Seek these on e-music for the breadth of his style - the first conventional jazz guitar a la Jim Hall, the second simply the most convincing jazz-rock record I've heard in years...jazz-rock that takes flight rather than plods. Edit: Just noticed two Robson discs appear on e-music today - one the strings project mentioned above; the other a disc by his partner, Christine Tobin. He's always been a very sympathetic player on her discs:

That's how I see it too. I gave up on rock c. 1976-8 (punk killed my interest) but I still love the rock I cut my teeth on the late 60s/early 70s (even the not so good or rather twee records!). I find the four-square beat of rock off-putting now - it was always there but seems to be much more up front now. I also don't care for the way that all the spaces get filled in, often with a synth. But that's just me; to others it's a great appeal and 70s bands sound limp by comparison. I don't worry - there's so much music in so many different genres out there to keep me interested for the rest of my life.

I spent the first half-century of my life browsing in record shops. I kicked the habit two or three years back (thank you, internet!). A couple of weeks back I was in London and spent a couple of hours around Oxford Street - I popped into Rays, HMV and Zavvi (formerly Virgin). In each case I got bored after 15 minutes and gave up looking (not because of the stock...still seemed plenty there...but the whole process tired me! I am a reformed man! [Now where's that amazon bill?]

Anyone remember 'The Krypton Factor'? "You have 3 minutes...starting...NOW....!!!!"

I can see that. Most misbehaviour in a classroom is just bad behviour - kids wanting to show off, kids who've never had clear boundaries etc. But some behave badly because of the way they are wired and some because they've lived through endless trauma and have not been effectively socialised. I'm sure that's true in the cultural world too.

No-one is expecting all musicians to be 'good boys' - as has been said above, musicians reflect humanity in general and will have the same mix. I might despise some of Wagner's ideas (and feel uncomfortable about the use put to his music by some admirers) but I can compartmentalise (as Daniel Barenboim can) and be drawn into the beauty of the music and the pull of the drama. But there is a viewpoint - born out of 19thC Romanticism - that musicians (and others who anoint themselves as 'artists') can be excused such behaviour. That they are outside of the norms of the community, need to operate without it's constraints, can't make their 'art' otherwise (in that respect someone like Kerouac is a typical Romantic). There's an implication that a true 'artist' is only interesting when unshackled from the requirements of working within the mores of the community. And at some point this can turn to a lionising of the bad behaviour - at a populist level you see this in the way that misbehaviour of celebrities is celebrated (the press might appear to be outraged by Amy Winehouse but they're lapping up yet another demonstration of the high performing outsider). You get this everywhere from the playground (the naughty boy who soon gets a handful of acolytes saying what a cool guy he is, trying to bask in his notoriety) to the bulletin board! In the end most of us are going to continue to listen to engaging music, no matter who a person shot or abused. I just tend to fall on the side of needing to say 'But no matter how great the music, that behaviour was wrong' rather than 'He was an artist, he has to be excused these things'. At the same time I'm not going to heep vast praise on the musician who works in schools, gives to charity, addresses vital social issues yet makes dull music. But when the latter makes fantastic music, whilst working inside society, aware of communal obligations, then he or she will get my enthusiasm. When a kid behaves badly it makes sense to reprimand them for the bad thing they've done, not yell at them for being a bad person. With bad boy musicians the same is true - separate the specific behaviour from the overall person.

I was struck by the phrase 'has a home on...'

'The Sacred Willow' got my curious about the Franco-Vietminh War.

Famous people from or living on the Isle of Man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famous_reside...the_Isle_of_Man Includes Rick Wakeman...I don't recall "Isle of Man: the Opera on Ice".

I've never been. I'd imagine that if you are into walking there's some fine coastal walks and plenty of birdlife. I don't know if it's still the case but Douglas (the main town) used to be a destination where Dubliners went for a wild weekend! I don't know how long you're over for but you might find it a bit limiting after a few days. Consider taking in Dublin as well. As well as the city there's some amazing countryside and sites of interest within an hour's drive. I'm sure you've found this: http://www.visitisleofman.com/

I certainly do - my dad still uses it to mean 'later on' rather than 'immediately'. He also eats 'AAAggs' with his bacon!

I don't!

That would be the jazz CD shop in Bath, if you are thinking East of Cornwall. Failing that it's the Jazz Record Centre or Downtown Music Gallery NYC if thinking West. I'm not sure if there are any jazz outlets these days in Exeter (there used to be a great LP shop on Gandy St but long gone now I'm afraid). Too bad that Peter Russell's 'Hot Record Store' in Plymouth is long gone. That was a good place - although a bit 'trad/mainstream' inclined. I think I'd prefer NYC! Rubbish pasties! In 3 1/2 years living in Cornwall I got out twice - both times to Plymouth! It's probably as easy to get to NYC as Bath.

I suspect that record was put together to create some joy, make a little money, by people trying to do the best job they could. And they clearly succeeded beyond their wildest dreams - I somehow doubt they had their eyes on posterity. So why does it have to be picked out of the 'pop' box and put in the 'art' box? And who decides if it should move? (most of the heated arguments about music seem to revolve around this - what is worthy. As always those who feel the need to judge come armed with a set of cultural criteria for admission into the inner sanctum that are not shared in common.) I think this is just about trying to legitimise something that has grown up in one culture in the terms of a very different set of cultural values. The Supremes don't need that validation. I'm not convinced a system of cultural measurement from the 18th/19thC has much value in the 21st.

It depends if you think a creator is obliged to reflect themselves in what they produce - that the 'art' is only 'honest' if it reflects the 'artist's' real personality. I suspect that there are a fair few 'artists' who aim at 'artifice' - the creation of something that in no ways tells you anything about themselves. Stravinsky always tried to detach the creations from the person. I doubt if you can totally divorce the two, MG, but I suspect there is a great deal of creative music etc that sets out quite deliberately to be detached. Not expressing yourself but using an 'art-form' to go somewhere very different. I'd imagine quite a few troubled people find creating music etc quite a rewarding way to escape their troubles. I find myself in two minds about this - not just with criminals, abusers etc, but with the sort of musician who does adopt a haughty and elitist demeanour. In the end I compartmentalise - what a twerp, but what marvellous music. It's always great to come across someone like Vaughan Williams whose music I adore and also comes across as a decent bloke (in spite of his pedigree!).

I wouldn't dispute that there are higher qualities - the St. Matthew Passion or Ellington 40s records clearly show people realising the fullest human potential. It's the game playing that grates - where something that can perfectly convincingly be regarded as an example of high achievement gets rubbished as a way for the rubbisher to claim a higher standard of discrimination. Music, painting, writing...the lot...exists for me in a sort of three dimensional spectrum. Dividing it into 'art' and 'not art' is purely arbitrary and more to do with tribe forming than anything else. I've no problem...and I don't think British culture - actually has much problem with intellectualism (using the brain to create, investigate etc)! We're just very guarded when it comes to pseudo-intellectualism. We've grown up with it being used by some to maintain a sense of exclusiveness. I don’t think Carey is being anti-intellectual. He’s challenging the abuse of intellectualism - the use of the intellect to create an exclusive zone rather than using it for the benefit of the community at large.

I remember that period only too well. This was the early 70s when hairy rock musicians mingled freely with jazz musicians to produce music of wildly variable quality. I remember seeing an early Mike Westbrook multi-media piece called Earthrise at the Mermaid theatre in London and sitting just in front of the whole of Manfred Mann. In fact, Manfred Mann's Chapter Three ( first album ) was a pretty successful attempt at fusing jazz and prog rock from this period. The thing I liked about this period was that almost anything was possible, eg Centipede. Can't imagine the accountants in charge of what's left of the music industry letting this kind of thing getting past the proposal stage. Absolutely - those were the days when people like Tippett could make something like a living on the college circuit. 'Septober Energy' remains a favourite of mine (though I think he pulled it off even more successfully with the almost snuck out 'Frames' a few years later, where the rock elements have vanished). Where are you in Cornwall, Jazzjet? I lived in Newquay from 1968-72 during my mid teens and have strong links with the county - my dad is from Tregony just outside Truro.

Carey's programme really hit home with me, especially the Arnold Bennett section. I enjoyed a post-war Welfare State education that had been denied my parents and recall being fed these ideas of what was good for me at school. At Uni I had to read a Bennett book ('Anna of the Five Towns') which I thoroughly enjoyed. I then had to sit through a lecture where I was told why I shouldn't have enjoyed it. I started to smell a rat at that point.

'Septober Energy' is really only fusion-y (in the jazz rock sense) for the first half of side 2 and the centre of side 4. Though the other parts certainly cross into contemporary classical territory. The fusion-y bits of Westbrook's 'Citadel' also tend to stick out like a sore thumb. Interesting that Westbrook quickly dropped that chugging funky beat thing from his music. Would the Nucleus albums fit here? Perhaps not a big band at centre but some of those records add other musicians. Much as I admire the musicians playing I've always found the rock there hard to enjoy. Too many gigs in my youth where well-spoken Englishmen in loon pants urged me to 'get down'. Carla Bley was mentioned earlier - I think this one works:

Thank you, seeline. The good news is that it's sat there waiting for me at e-music and I've still got 29 credits! Downloading as I type!

I think you'll find in Britain that even the middle classes have little interest in 'the arts' in the intellectual sense. One interesting change in the last ten years or so is that government ministers are more likely to seek photo opportunities at a football match than in an opera house. Given that elections are won and lost capturing the middle class vote, this seems to reflect the level of interest between the 'arts' and sport. The massive spending and attention devoted to the 2012 Olympics has no comparison in the fields of music, painting etc. You won't find many voices in the UK speaking out for the centrality of 'the arts'.

Taking up the side-shoot... This is how I see it too. I wonder if there might be a cross-Atlantic divide here. Over the years I've noticed that it's American posters who are more likely to make statements about the importance of 'art', more likely to differentiate between art and not art. I wonder if this is because we've had centuries of it in Europe and have just got jaded. Whereas 'art' recognised internationally as distinctive is hardly a century old in the States. Or maybe it is just so associated with the upper classes in Europe (or at least Britain which has a deeply rooted suspicion of intellectualism outside those classes). The main promotional bodies here are still dominated by that social elite. There's a book by John Carey called 'The Intellectuals and the Masses, 1880-1939' that puts a very convincing case (to me at least) that much of modernism was a deliberate attempt to put a distance between the elite and the masses at a time when mass education threatened to see the masses catch up. By creating 'art' that was deliberately obscure they could still retain their sense of superiority. I've not read the book but the TV programme a year or so back certainly played to my prejudices. There's a synopsis here: http://grumpyoldbookman.blogspot.com/2005/...and-masses.html Quite a few of the early 20thC literary giants come across as people with extremely unpleasant political and social ideas. D.H. Lawrence in a 1908 letter about the old, sick and suffering - ‘If I had my way, I would build a lethal chamber as big as the Crystal Palace’ (which returns to the main theme of the thread).

Many thanks all...and keep them coming. Will check out Kiko Dinucci. I have this early Lobo record which I love... With so much out there I was unsure where to go next. I now have a target - thanks, Seeline. The Joyce/Tutty record is indeed marvellous. I was lucky enough to see them last month as part of an all star 50th anniversary of Bossa concert in London. Joyce had the audience eating out of her hand from the moment she hit the stage. A couple of recent favourites from me: Their album with the Tamba Trio plus selections from a couple of other albums. I'd feared something a bit sugary but this has the ghostliness of the Afeo-Sambas. I keep raving about this one a Sao Paulo singer, resident in the UK. It uses mainly British musicians but it just knocked my socks off this year. The quality of the songwriting is stunning. One I got off e-music and really enjoyed yesterday: [Casuarina - self-titled] Acoustic, lots of rhythmic stringed instuments, joyous vocals.

I really like Binney's albums - wide ranging and full of interest. Especially when he's teamed with Adam Rogers. They played the Cheltenham Festival over here a couple of years back - marvellous performance. Well worth tracking down Joel Harrison's two 'Free Country' albums where Binney is a major voice. There was a live broadcast of a London gig of that band on the BBC that was very exciting. Worth going to Binney's website. He regular puts up downloads of recent gigs at very inexpensive prices.

I think a pub in somewhere like Moreton-in-the-Marsh might be nicer! Perfect !!!!! Or failing that - Stow on the Wold. In my experience Stow has traffic problems on a par with Brum. I've often had to wait 30 mins + to get through.