Christiern

Interesting observations, ep1str0phy. What you say about the stigma of HIV/AIDS possibly having given Rhames second thought about seeking medical help rings true. People often associated AIDs so strongly with homosexuality that those infected with it were instinctively labeled. Albert Daley and Woody Shaw—neither of whom were gay, as far as I know—come to mind.

Here is a link to the aforementioned (by Allen)transcript of the panel discussion moderated by Francis Davis. Interesting—if somewhat verbose—article by Sherri Tucker. Thanks, David A.

There was no hinting when it came to Miles. He was as outspoken as they come—too much so for many people. Miles was often brutally honest. I wish he had written his autobiography rather than allow Quincy Troupe to make stuff up. I strongly disagree with those who believe that an artist's sexual orientation ought not be brought up, because it is somehow unrelated to his/her creative output. When I wrote my book on Bessie Smith, I never paused to ponder whether or not I should mention her eclectic sexual desires. Her bi-sexuality (and that is what it was, in her case) was an integral part of her persona and much of what she did was more readily understood in light of that knowledge. I recall reading a biography of Langston Hughes that gave not a hint of his homosexuality and, thus, left the uninitiated reader with unanswered questions. How much did Carl Van Vechten's homosexuality (not bi-sexuality, although he was married) influence his activities in Harlem, his role in the Harlem Renaissance? What Allen said bears repeating: "The failure to discuss this stuff is more destructive than actually talking about it."

Sorry. I had to scroll up to see which question I hadn't answered. I somehow missed that one, so here's what I have to say about that. Here's the part of Valerie's post that I was responding to: "I doubt quite sincerely that Oscar, Count, Dizzy, Duke and Miles would be termed 'gay'. perhaps 'bi-sexual' would be more appropriate, if true." Sure, a person can be madly in love with his or her spouse while also finding same-sex compatibility—even love. There is a very thin line separating Gay from bi-sexual. You may recall that Elton John referred to himself as belonging in the latter category at a time when it had become common knowledge that he was homosexual. It was his way of softening the blow, as it were, because a man having sex with another man was (and, apparently, still is) somehow regarded as being less unsettling if he also sleeps with women. He's not really gay, they justify, he's just curious. That is pure BS. Gay people were commonly forced to marry a person of the opposite sex in order to quell gossip and satisfy those (often family) who were afflicted with homophobia. It was in many cases cruel punishment and suicides based on the narrow thinking of others were not uncommon. That said, most gay people have had a heterosexual experience in their life, and many are parents, but that does not necessarily make them bi-sexual—it often just makes them compliant. When I termed Valerie's response naïve, I had in mind the fact that she has moved on the jazz scene for many years, so she had to have noticed the macho atmosphere that, to some degree, still exists in that world. Our culture loves to create stereotypes and Gay people were not supposed to be construction workers, runway models, cowboys, housewives....or jazz musicians. Gay men were interior decorators, ballet dancers, etc. while gay women were truck drivers, Army captains, etc. I recall a Billy Taylor album where he felt a need to mention in the liner notes that while his instrument was the piano, he also had children. I am sure that Billy was heterosexual, but he knew what misconceptions the thinking around him could generate. I thought Valerie's statement said more about her thinking than it did about the reality so many would rather not face. The irony is that there is nothing wrong with that reality unless one has been conditioned. Miles once told me that he enjoyed sex with other men—not exclusively, but with some regularity. He almost said that on "60 Minutes", when interviewed by Morley Schafer. Miles mentioned two musicians whom he had "fooled around" with—one has been mentioned in this thread—but I also kept that to myself, although he didn't request that I do so. I believe that people should only be "outed" by themselves, when they feel the time has come. It is a different matter when it comes to people who are no longer with us, so I disagree with Joel in that respect. So, to return to your question, Ubu, I just wanted to point out that the bi-sexual card is often dealt by people who—consciously or subconsciously—are in denial. Have I now answered your question?

:tup

To say that someone is not gay is to aver that he/she is straight. It is not to ignore their sexuality. To protest when someone is identified as having been gay can be construed as declaring that there is something wrong with being gay. Perhaps the point of this thread is to generate a discussion that historically has been avoided in jazz circles and to bring awareness to the fact that many jazz musicians have quietly been the victims of bigotry.

Having babies and marrying multiple times is not at all unusual, especially when one considers Peterson's environment and the fact that we only recently have woken up to reality. I am currently compiling a list of jazz musicians who might possibly be straight. Please bear with me.

Talk about a totally irrelevant post!

The point was, I think, that Bunk and Ben seem unlikely members of the gay community. I find it interesting that we still detect that hint of denial in a few of the responses on this thread. This is the 21st Century. Some of the greatest people ever were/are gay. It is not a crime. It is not anything that should make one shudder. Yes, Basie loved his wife—that does not preclude his leading a more encompassing life. I'm sure John Hammond also loved his wives.

No if about it regarding the names you cite, Valerie. Puilling out the old bi-sexual card is just plain naïve—perhaps with a bit of wishful thinking or denial thrown in. You have been on the scene long enough to know that any gay jazz musician had to play the game and at least appear to be bi-sexual, but even that was not accepted—except when it came to women. For some reason, perhaps because many men like to see two women make love, same-sex affairs (or just dancing and holding hands) was quietly acceptable. If a man wants to have sex with another man, and enjoys it, you can call him a grapefruit, bi-sexual, curious, or whatever.. he is as gay as the man who expresses his desires openly.

Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Oscar Peterson, Cecil Taylor, Don Pullen... there ar several others that I know of, but some of them are still among us. ...and that's no bunk! Bunk and Webster? I would say that even now that qualifies as a bombshell. KGB? Naw..... unless they were double agents.

Leigh Whipper, the venerable black character actor ("Ox Bow Incident," etc.) described for me Bessie Smith's departure from a Carl Van Vechten party. "Just as Bessie Smith was about to leave, Mrs. Van Vechten, a lady of short stature, raised herself on her toes and threw her arms around her neck. 'Get away from me,' shouted Miss Bessie, throwing her arms out in such a way that the poor lady fell to the floor. Then Miss Bessie turned to make her exit, and as she did that, she declared for all to hear, 'I ain't never heard of such excrement!'."

I turned on KCR today, just in time to hear Phil Schaap almost outdo himself in blather babble. He was about to play Billie's "All of Me", the one on which Prez takes an extra chorus. I didn't have the stopwatch going, but Phil spent at least ten minutes (more like 15-20) trying to explain why that take was not issued originally. The simple explanation is that It was too long to fit on a 10" disc, but Phil had to tell the listener why the standard sized 78rpm disc could not accommodate 3 minutes and 48 sec. (or whatever it was). Billie, he said could have upped the tempo, but she chose to keep it slow, so another take had to be made and one of Prez's choruses was eliminated. He never explained that the recordings were made on 16" acetates (which were used during the transition from the old wax-like substance to tape,and made it possible to exceed the normal length (which a 10" master disc would not). He just had to make up a story and invent another imagined scenario. Thus a brief exchange between Billie and someone he went to great length do describe as "possibly" Bernie Hanighen, because the voice "is not John Hammond's", became a story. The voice from the control room informs the players that the take was about a minute too long. Billie says something like, ""I know, we'll do it over." What was she thinking? Why did she sound irritated? The Schaap knows. Silly stuff of the kind that makes many people think Phil is the greatest authority. He has even identified himself as such, but much of his purported "inside knowledge" is fantasy. As for the voice from the control room, it could have been the recording engineer's, but that did not occur to Phil, nor is it really important. That led into several minutes spent talking about producers having been designated as A&R men or supervisors, and other irrelevant details—and, of course, everything was repeated at least once. BTW, this 1941 take of "All of Me" was on an acetate I unearthed at Columbia and issued about 40 years ago.

The sound of water dripping onto the metal top of a radiator woke me up at about 4 AM. It turned out to be water coming through the wall and I ended up collecting four wastepaper baskets full before the rain stopped. Ironically, it was only last week that they put up scaffolding in preparation for pointing the building. Having grabbed a variety of containers, I grabbed a camera: This evening, the light gave a new building across the park and interesting look...

It was inevitable, but I didn't expect it quite so soon. Dear Sir/Madam, I am M/S Zainnab Sayed Gaddaf al Dam, daughter to Brigadier Sayed Gaddaf al Dam, third in the command hirachy of the depose government of the people of Libya Arab Jamahiriy I am contacting you in strict confidence knowing fully well that , this medium is not trusted, secured, but we believe in your great sense of understanding and judgment., Before her Excellency departed to TUNIS. We need not over emphasize on what is going on in our dear country, the grand gang up by the international countries but spear headed by a few powerful nations with face the of NATO, all in the name of democratic reforms which is very strange to our cultural values, first over the years it was speculations, and there after intelligence reports leaked confirming ethnic conspiracy and the interest in taking over the oil wells, confiscation of funds etc, Right now they have succeeded in destroying our country and the resources built over the years, empowering the rebel government to seize all the money and properties of the ruling families. However last year November, 2010, Madam was in Accra for a business transaction, and she lodged some funds with a private vault operator,this fund was actually meant for the purchase of a gold mine at OBUASI, in the KUMASI region but we lost to the Chinese. as luck will have it, these fund were well conceal in diplomatic consignment and declared as archeological artifacts, family treasures and mining materials. So for now, considering the turn of event in Tripoli, Madam has reached a decision to source for an astute manager of investment, who can assist us take over these funds at Accra for investment, someone with proven experience and capabilities. Your' Faithfully, ZAINNAB SAYED AL - DAM

I thought I was imagining things. Sure, I felt movement—thanks for making me feel better about it!

I was shocked and saddened to hear that Nick Ashford just passed away. He and Valerie Simpson were people I often saw and socialized with back in the day. I haven't found an obituary yet, but I'm sure it will be in the morning papers. Happier days...

What I hate most are synchronized swimming in-fights.

That will be your loss. Much care has gone into previous releases—they are exemplary.

Aren't Chuckies sweet and chocolaty?

Did he perhaps study audio transfer under Schaap?

So, what's new? Guess the Driggs connection might have something to do with the tape I found stuck between a console and the wall at Columbia's 52nd Street studio. He would park hot tapes there before taking them to wherever he kept the ill-gotten hoard that he called The Frank Driggs Collection. Ok, so I tell it like it is. Someone needs to.

I know that Frank Driggs is the guy who never saw a photograph he didn't take, but who is Lonnie Johnson??????

He is a talking book of faction. Fortunately, he does not do his Irwin Corey number when I speak to him in person.