DrJ

I think the quote makes perfect sense even if taken completely out of its original context/discussion, and I happen to totally agree with it. The only caveat is that "moving forward" is open to some interpretation. I think there's two flavors (basically - with infinite gradations within each): - Innovation - "dig the new breed" - Refinement (a la Louis Armstrong in his later career) of a particular sound or style until nothing but the essence remains So a younger player that might choose to play within a fairly well-circumscribed set of rules that might define a style (hard bop, whatever) that does the latter is still moving things forward in my view. The main point seems to me that it's pointless to simply repeat what's already been done over and over again. As Canadian pop/rocker Bruce Cockburn once said in a song, "The trouble with normal is it always gets worse."

I would think if they had used mono masters it would be clearly indicated in the LP booklet. But it's not. They only list stereo matrix numbers in the discography, and then simply say at the bottom that to get mono matrix numbers for any of these, Candid replaced an 8 at the start of the matrix number with a 9 (or something like that...you get the idea, even though I may have the digits reversed). There is no mention of any of the music coming from mono transfers. Again, if the CHARLES MINGUS PRESENTS...stuff in this box is mono, it's the most stereo-ish mono I've ever come across. There is a lot of spread among the instruments, it just doesn't seem plausible this could be mono (which I often like a lot, but it's never sounded like this to me). Ultimately, I don't care - it sounds great!

Agree with Jim R, start by searching the archives. Short answer: one of my all time favorite musicians.

That's my impression too wolff - stereo, not mono. Yes, splendid sound, although what I was getting at was that it's not a very polished, glitzy type of studio sound. It's almost anti-polished, very true almost to the point of being unflattering at times. However, that doesn't always have to be read as a negative. Definitely I agree that they captured a very natural room sound. Dannie Richmond's drums and Mingus' bass in particular are simply amazing...as life like as any capturing of those instruments I've heard. However I still find the horns to be a little flat-sounding still, even though they are MILES better here than on the CDs.

I just wanted to put in a very strong positive plug for the LP set, despite the omission of the 2 tracks as discussed above. First, in defense of Mosaic, these were apparently not able to be located at the time of the LP set's production...they were later found on a reel that had been labeled as containing only Cal Massey's sole leader date for Candid. So hard to fault Cuscuna/Mosaic for that, and they did after all "make it right" with the later CD edition. More importantly - the Mosaic LP set sounds amazing. I had the Candid reissue from 2000 of CHARLES MINGUS PRESENTS CHARLES MINGUS and even though it was slightly cleaned up from an earlier Candid CD reissue, it still sounds like it's from some horrid 12th generation source, definitely not from the original master. While these were never remarkably good recordings, the difference is staggering...cleaner, crisper on the LP, and you hear things you could never have heard before. Given the absolutely top flight musical quality of this session and its historical importance, it is so nice to be able to hear it with this level of sonics. I should say I haven't heard the Mosaic CD version of this set, but given the era and my prior experience with earlier Mosaic LP versus CD sonics, I'm guessing it's no comparison, with the LPs coming out on top. Also, compared to piecing this together via crappy Candid reissues, the Mosaic booklet is very informative and well-done. I got my copy on Ebay for about $120 with shipping etc. More (about $30) per LP than I usually like to pay but it was really a bargain given all I've mentioned. I'm sure if you hold out you can get a slightly better deal, I do see this set up for auction pretty frequently (in fact one was on the block right after the one I got and it never met the seller's reserve which I'd guess would be about $80-100) so it didn't sell. One issue: the LP set booklet is not clear on whether mono or stereo masters were used for MINGUS PRESENTS...I've heard that mono sources were used (original session tapes, thus better sound quality) but if so this is mono with more "spread" between instruments than I'm used to. Would be interested if anyone can clarify this issue.

Thanks for the take on Moby Grape...still something I'd like to check out (first eponymous LP, per my understanding, is "the one" if you gotta have any) but nice to have an advance opinion.

If your calculations are correct, not too shabby a price given the scarcity of this LP set and the quality of the sonics/music. Nice buy, keep us posted on your thoughts please!

Agreed! Beware, folks, you have a whole lot of Big Brothers watching...

I'm in, definitely.

Sorry to hear this, I love the old Airplane stuff, and he was still so relatively young. Sad. Hey this is probably as good a time as any for me to check out Moby Grape, something I've always wanted to do. What is their stuff like? Close to the original Airplane at all, or what?

He may or may not be intelligent - I don't purport to know him personally - but I definitely don't think Crouch writes well, at all. He is as I said a pompous windbag, throwing around a lot of important sounding words that ultimately mean nothing. He also writes the same essay over and over again...no matter the context or subject at hand, he will slip in at least one Ellington reference, at least one sideswipe some element of popular culture of which he disapproves, one comment on racism (again an important topic as are all these, but one that I refuse to see as pertinent to every single situation one is charged with writing about), and a gratuitious ass kiss of one of his favored artists - and I'm not talking about the one he's writing the liner notes for. Check it out for yourself, see if I'm not right on target here. Formula writing 101. As to the question someone asked earlier, basically "if he's so bad why are people asking him to write liners?" Well, I would assert nobody really is anymore. There was a time in the 80s when he was quite in vogue, not only for Wynton's albums but also for Blue Note and others. But that was a long time ago. At least for newer music I check out, I haven't seen his name on a single liner note essay in years. I would imagine people caught on to the fact that he was essentially turning in the same tired stuff over and over again, just changing a couple of names and tune titles. The Crouch essays that are in the Pullen box I was mentioning above are reproduced from the original CDs, not newly comissioned. Nobody cares anymore, Stanley.

I know Jim Sangrey may jump in and flame BOTH of us ( ) but I liked Daniels in that era a lot myself, too. I don't have that OJC you mention (another one added to the list!) but I dig what he did on the Jones/Lewis Solid State big band recordings in the Mosaic box, and REALLY dig what he does in Don Patterson's GENIUS OF THE B-3 (Muse) which I just discovered recently. On that date, everyone is taking chances and having a ball, firmly locked in to a collective groove, but it's Daniels that easily takes solo honors - playing smoking tenor, alto, and soprano.

Looks pretty darn good - if I may ask, what did you pay (as I might want to look for this one myself sometime)?

I found a copy of this one used in a local haunt in the Bay Area over the holidays...number 0015 in fact! I had only RANDOM THOUGHTS (a trio date) and BREAKTHROUGH (with Adams/Richmond/Brown), so half of the music is new to me. The sound is definitely significantly improved for BREAKTHROUGH which was a pretty early era CD...it wasn't horrible for its time but there is no comparison, much improved for this new release. The Pullen/Adams band is IMHO fantastic...truly joyous, jubilant, sophisticated stuff shot through with excellent humor and a rootsy, almost folksy approach at times...come to think of it, not unlike the best of Mingus himself. BREAKTHROUGH is the better album but SONG EVERLASTING is certainly no slouch, these are two of the finest albums of the era IMHO. Of the trios, I have yet to fully warm to RANDOM THOUGHTS although I like it better than I did when I first got it. I much prefer the NEW BEGINNINGS trio with Peacock and Tony Williams, which I think is a quiet masterpiece. This is partly for Williams' great work but also I think that I prefer Pullen in this slightly more rootsy, closer to the mainstream mode than in his hammering mode (much on display in RANDOM THOUGHTS). He has some favored licks/mannerisms when playing in that mode that to me are the pianistic equivalent of David Murray's dog range high whistling thing, interesting once or twice but ultimately over-used and wearying. The fact the stuff is "challenging" doesn't bother me, but so far it hasn't repayed my efforts...could be my deficiency, I'll keep trying. Also the material on the trio date with Williams I find to be much more memorable, fresh. Anyway, this is HIGHLY worthy of anyone's attention, I can't imagine one being disappointed by this box. If nothing else, jazz has seldom ever felt as joyful as it could in these amazing hands - there are some of the most truly celebratory sounding jazz songs you'll ever hear - the opening cut from BREAKTHROUGH for example, "Mr. Smoothie," and "Jana's Delight" on NEW BEGINNINGS.

Crouch is a very poor writer, and a total windbag. Recently I began reading through the booklet for the Don Pullen Mosaic Select...and as I read and found myself coming across a series of typical-sounding snipes (against rock music for example, and "most" of the avant-garde) I started to think "Damn, whoever wrote the crap is as insufferable as Stanley Crouch." When I got to the byline...well, you guessed it. It was quite a validating experience, confirming that I've been negatively reacting to his idiocy and ineptness all along and not just jumping on the bandwagon with the (growing) legion of people who also hate him.

Yeah, I think the VeeJay release is pretty widely known of. I think the short length of those Beatles albums was so much the better - they still sound fresh and never wear out their welcome. BEATLES VI may not be the strongest of the American bastardizations, but there are some truly GREAT tunes there other than the admittedly wonderful "Eight Days A Week." How about "Yes It Is," Lennon's frantic take on "Dizzy Miss Lizzy," "Tell Me What You See" (an early foreshadowing of the darker tendencies of the next few years), heck even the wonderful Buddy Holly homage on "Words of Love." Sorry, another pretty great one, although maybe more subdued and subtle than the few that came before.

Many, many great ideas in this thread - I've been bugging them about Yusef Lateef's Impulse! material for literally years. A Shirley Scott Impulse! leader dates Select might also be nice, eh? And how about: Toshiko Akiyoshi-Lew Tabackin Big Band - Complete RCA Recordings The Ahmad Jamal Chess/Argo stuff - no brainer if they can work out licensing, although this may have enough sales potential that Universal would want to do it themselves Gary Burton Complete RCA Recordings (see discussion on another thread I started in past - some great and truly historic stuff in there) Horace Tapscott Complete Nimbus Recordings (probably never happen) Lucky Thompson set of some kind - ideal would be a collection of various leader sessions for small labels that have never been properly reissued (good sound, documentation, etc) - as a Select probably Slide Hampton Octet Atlantic Recordings (another probable Select?) A set of rare one-offs on the Emarcy label - stuff by people who led 1 or 2 dates for the label at most. Maynard Ferguson Mercury (or is it Emarcy) recordings - I've seen some very promising line-ups on these, not all that different than the Roulette years which made a very fine box IMHO. Is a Complete Freedom/Arista Sessions Box conceivable? Seems it would be - especially given Michael Cuscuna's personal involvement with most if not all of the stuff released - and boy would that be worthwhile and prompt some serious and much-needed re-evaluation and revisiting of an era... ********** For Blue Notes, I have all the stuff now so don't really urgently want to see these, but honestly can't fathom (given their other BN artists' sets) why there have never been full-fledged Mosaics for the following: Sonny Clark (complete leader dates for the label, of course) - this seems like one that they would have done YEARS ago, back around the time they did the Redd and Tina Brooks boxes. A mystery. Kenny Burrell (complete on BN) - ditto. Wha'happen? Bobby Hutcherson (would have made most sense to do all his recordings through about 1970 some time ago, but now I'd say a later-period Select as has been discussed as possibly in the works). I would also LOVE personally to see a Hutcherson/Land complete leader sessions box - bringing in the Blue Notes, Argo and affiliated labels, Mainstream, and any other leader dates I'm missing ********** For earlier jazz eras: 1) Complete Sidney Bechet RCA/Victor Recordings 2) Complete Coleman Hawkins RCA/Victor Recordings 3) Complete JUMP label output (some fine, fine and hard to find stuff) 4) I like the Lunceford idea 5) Love the Hodes idea

On a brighter note - continuing on the "I bought this because of someone's recommendation on this thread" theme begun earlier...let me just say that Randy Weston's WITH THESE HANDS... is one fantastic CD, you gotta hear it if you're a Weston fan for sure. 3 stars in AMG - yeah, what was THAT reviewer smoking?! This is really great Weston and Cecil Payne along in great form, some of the arrangements on standards here are really remarkable, you get the first version of "Little Niles," and it's amazing to hear how fully formed Randy's style was way back then. Excellent sound quality on this recording, too. Don't miss it.

Re: the Holman, I'm still not quite into it yet, and I've listened off and on now for several years and do plan to continue trying periodically. At this point, I still am feeling like he missed the mark ultimately, although it's a fascinating angle and he deserves definite kudos for trying to bring something new to the music. "Fussy" is a pretty good word actually - I might have said "self-conscious" too.

Interesting as hell. Hmph! A Baxter remembrance - job/political history aside, he's one funny dude in print at least. I remember reading an article (may have been in Guitar Player or somewhere like that) back in the later 70s/early 80s where he described one of his Dan solos as (paraphrasing here but pretty close I think) "an all expenses paid weekend at Rancho Bebop."

You have got to be kidding...let's see, I can go buy timeless masterpieces by Bud Powell, Art Tatum, Earl Hines, Teddy Wilson, and others for less than HALF of what it would cost me to buy Mr. Perez' new disc? Not to mention that I can buy a Mosaic Select - 3 CDs of some other timeless jazz - for $39...well I'm sure this one is worthy of a listen, but it definitely isn't worth $35 to me. That's insane. I'm all for supporting artists but... Reading David's post it starts to make a LITTLE more sense but I still have to really question the wisdom of that type of marketing approach. How many people are going to be willing to plump down $35 for one album they can hear now, a second they haven't heard yet, and an artist's newsletter? I guess maybe some but it seems like jazz is foundering enough saleswise even with traditional CD pricing, why would this help?

Apropos of very little here - but chalk me up as a closet early-ish Chicago fan. Not great players overall (although Terry Kath wasn't too bad, even kind of distinctive) but an undeniable knack for catchy pop horn arrangements and hooks in those earlier years. First five or so LPs were consistently pretty good - and kind of charmingly overambitious and "junior league BS&T goes big time" way. Main downside was wearying mega-over-exposure on the radio, but you can't really blame them for that. After that, the next few albums were each collections of 2 or 3 very strong singles jury-rigged together with lots of filler and the occasional cool LP track (Kath again was the wild card..."Oh Thank You Great Spirit" on VIII was pretty groovy). And after his death, things were never quite the same...let's just say etCETERA, etCETERA, etCETERA...yeccchhh.

Yeah, the idea that you have to prance around like an idiot to add some life and color to games that got along just fine (in fact better) without this type of thing for years is just stupid. Boy, do I miss the old days... One thing in defense of the announcers - had somebody other than Moss done this, I'm sure it would have been less commented upon. You can't take this one incident out of context - the guy just did something equally stupid a week before, and in fact has done silly things MANY times in the past. So it's just part of a pattern, and I think they were genuinely flabbergasted that, after even some of his own teammates were coming down on him in the press the week before, he still just couldn't help himself. Honestly, I didn't feel in that light they blew it out of proportion in the least. Being a Niners fan and having to grit my teeth through the Terrell Owens years, I know whereof I speak.

I can now say that I was asking because I had a line on the 12 LP set on Ebay today...and was outbid (by a couple bucks!) at the last minute, literally...it went for a measly $32 and was listed as albums being mint! Darn it! Oh well...the more I read here the more I am thinking that probably the Japanese 20 bit K2 CD set or the Analogue Productions LPs (less complete but I have read raves elswhere on sound quality too) is probably the best route for me to go as "upgrade."

John, exactly my point. The classy guys like Culpepper, and the great stuff they do, are overshadowed by this crap, not only in the papers and in the media but on the field. However, I must say, part of the QBs role should be to lead, and Daunte missed a great opportunity to focus attention back on himself and the rest of the team (where it belonged) and send a strong message to Moss. Honestly, I would love to have seen Culpepper just walk over and smack Moss upside the head on national TV after his little gesture for a) being an idiot and b) showing up his actual playing prowess with his childishness. Sometimes I really miss the days of "old school" quarterbacks and coaches who would have put so much hurt and peer pressure on guys like Moss they'd be embarrassed to even THINK about doing that kind of stuff. That's my point too - I watched 15 minutes of 1 (one) NFL playoff game this weekend, and within that 15 minutes, this is what I saw. You don't have to look long and hard (and in light of the ED discussion, you CAN take that as a double entendre) to find this type of stuff...it's endemic. It IS the NFL.