ghost of miles

Excellent post, Jim. BTW Art Pepper is a great case-study of somebody who (in my mind) throws the West/East Coast dichotomy into a bit of a bind. He played with Kenton, he played with Benny Carter, he played with Hampton Hawes and he played at the Lighthouse. It does undermine the last sentence of Litweiler's quote, which perhaps is the kind of definition--as I chose to call it--that just comes off wrong to me, and is emblematic of the thinking that's shaped perceptions about West/East for the past 50+ years.

Where is that in dispute? You're singling out suggestions that I made to HG and admonishing him/me not to leave it at that, as if I were saying that certain books were the be-all and end-all to this subject--all I said was that Gioai's book was a fairly good start to the subject, and suggested that he take a look at CENTRAL AVENUE SOUNDS as well. I assume that nobody on this board is dumb enough to think any one book could wrap up such a topic, but if we're going this route, then, please, dear God, make sure that Gene Lees' book is not the be-all and end-all of this subject as well. All respect to John again--I have FREEDOM PRINCIPLE and recommend it to people, but when it comes to West Coast jazz, Gioia devoted an entire book to the subject. I don't see the huge gap that you see in the two writers' comprehension of the contexts/issues/whatever you want to call them, but when it comes to a deeper, more comprehensive view of WC jazz, I'm at a loss to understand this brusque dismissal of Gioia. And whatever his talent or lack thereof as a musician, he understands that side of the music from a player's perspective. I say this not to impugn John but because you've compared TG unfavorably to him on the terms of "background," and that strikes me as a bit odd. I'd find it a bit odd if I leaped into a discussion and said, "Don't trust John Litweiler on free jazz--trust Ted Gioia." I think both can be trusted on West Coast jazz, but split the difference and all that. Again, of course, but your earlier post seemed to be saying, "Now, don't go disliking West Coast jazz just because Horace Silver said it was 'faggot music.'" I haven't even presumed to know what HG's take on West Coast jazz was/is, and of course understanding the music is essential to helping explain what the racial tension was about, but you're already injecting an established value into the discussion--"West Coast jazz was of aesthetic worth, no matter what Horace Silver or some other musicians may have said about it because they were economically/socially/whatever threatened by it." I do presume HG is intellectually sound enough not to be swayed by inflammatory statements like Silver's. I'm not blaming the differences or the debate on "behind-the-scenes jazz Machiavellis" or some sort of bizarre conspiracy-think... yes there were differences, but your remark "The musics were different to some significant degree, by and large; and those differences were noted and remarked upon at the time by musicians, fans, and journalists from both musical and social perspectives" is partly what I was alluding to when I said "definitions." Chet Baker vs. Miles Davis, obviously completely different, right? Or are they? Is Sonny Clark West Coast or East Coast? Harold Land? Ornette Coleman? Hampton Hawes? Yes there were differences, but they were codified early on and taken at face value, and to some extent I think the resulting images were a product of marketing and media representation. The whole term "West Coast jazz" is, I think, a simplistic misnomer that brands a scene that was much more diverse than what the term has come to mean. No, no sinister cabal of jazz writers gathered to concoct a purposefully divisive presentation of the music, but these definitions by "musicians, fans, and journalists" did indeed contribute to the racial tension that ensued. If that came across as fingerpointing, my regret for the miscommunication. I also have to take issue with the implied downgrading of "testimony." Yes, you can't take what musicians say for the historical record at absolute value or distill all your judgments from that. But I'm generally inclined to give more credence to what jazz musicians say about an issue like racial tension in the music marketplace than I am to jazz writers, DJs, collectors, fanboys, water-carriers or what have you. To take NOTES AND TONES for an example, there are obvious problems with that book--AT asks leading questions, etc. But it also offers one of the first extensive documents of black musicians speaking frankly about racial matters in the music business. So I read it with the proverbial grain of salt, but there's much of value to examine there, particularly if one is pursuing a project like HG's. HG, I hope this disagreement is helpful or thought-provoking or otherwise of some assistance to you. If I have any other suggestions I'll PM them to you. I'm no jazz Machiavelli, but I do think that everybody has their own set of blinkers.

I'm a big fan of John Litweiler and like that quote, but will have to disagree on Larry's assessment of Gioia--he's a musician and did several years' worth of interviews and research on the book...IMO he has plenty of background on the subject. Both he and Litweiler are worth reading, on said topic and beyond. Larry's right that you need more than testimony, but if I'm understanding your project correctly, you're less interested in establishing some sort of aesthetic worth of either West Coast or East Coast jazz than you are in examining the racial tensions that these "definitions" caused in the music world. Obviously there isn't a single text that's going to provide you with all of the answers or even all of the questions--I think on this forum that generally can go without saying. But hopefully what everyone's suggesting here will give you some good entry points into a topic that, as Larry says, needs to be handled with the utmost care and scrupulousness.

Best wishes, MG--always enjoy your contributions to the board.

Re: what Larry said, Ted Gioia's West Coast Jazz is, I think, a fairly good start to the subject. Obvious to say, too, but I'll say it anyway, that West Coast/East Coast was not quite the white/black divide it's made out to be. How do, say, Curtis Counce or the Montgomery Brothers fit into the picture? (Not to mention early Charles Mingus.) Also worth checking out is Central Avenue Sounds, an oral history of jazz in Los Angeles, particularly the sections on the amalgamation of the black and white musicians' unions.

I've posted some on the links page at the Night Lights website and would like to add more... any suggestions? I'm interested in sites that contain some sort of historical component.

As a musician and a man, Thelonious Monk must have provided easy inspiration for the title-namer of his 1956 Riverside album, The Unique Thelonious Monk. His singular sound on the piano, his inability to perform in New York City for several years (due to NYC’s cabaret laws), and his unorthodox compositions that sounded like urban spirituals filtered through stride and bop, nodding at some strange deity of cool, all contributed to a relatively low profile until the late 1950s, when his star suddenly began to ascend into a wider popular culture. Monk’s style was so strong that it’s not surprising that he rarely performed as a sideman–as pianist Ran Blake noted, “There’s never any doubt who’s at the keyboard…it may be a delayed attack on a chord, a cluster that pounces like a tornado, or a jagged snippet that asserts itself under a number of guises.” This program focuses on those few sideman appearances, featuring early performances with Coleman Hawkins and Dizzy Gillespie’s big band (a rare airshot of the pianist’s “Round Midnight”), as well as trumpeter Clark Terry, saxophonist Gigi Gryce, and Monk’s legendary Christmas Eve 1954 encounter with Miles Davis. “Side Monk” airs Saturday, October 6 at 11:05 p.m. EST on WFIU and at 9 p.m. Central Time on WNIN-Evansville; it also airs Sunday evening at 10 EST on Michigan's Blue Lake Public Radio. The program will be posted for online listening Monday morning in the Night Lights archives. In honor of what would have been Thelonious Monk’s 90th birthday (Oct. 10), Duke University is hosting a six-week celebration of Monk’s life and music. Here’s a hatless Monk in 1961 performing his composition “Rhythm-a-ning."

HG, in addition to the words of wisdom and cautionary caveats offered by Clem and Larry above, you might also want to check out Art Taylor's NOTES AND TONES, a book of roughly 30 interviews or so that AT conducted with other African-American musicians. Been awhile since I read it, but some of what's said there might help you with your project. Publication date is 1977, but iirc many of the interviews were conducted in the late 1960s and early 1970s.

With Art Pepper? Yep--also really dig their duo recordings. Do you have the Dexter Keystone sides--either as singles or the Mosaic Select? No, but I'll bet if you do a Night Lights about it, I will! Used one cut from that set in this show about late-70s Dex--same cut is up on the Mosaic website, along with "It's You or No One."

With Art Pepper? Yep--also really dig their duo recordings. Do you have the Dexter Keystone sides--either as singles or the Mosaic Select? Lots of fine work from Mr. Cables on there as well.

I guess I'm puzzled as to why there's a need for another general Coltrane book right now, unless the author has some really hot new angle or information to present (please, not that Coltrane dropped acid a few times). I'd rather see Lewis Porter revise his previous work--with additional chapters about the Coltrane/Dolphy axis (which gets scant attention in the current version) and 1965 (ditto).

This and the Tristano bio are both going on my b-day/x-mas list.

Anybody gotten an advance/review/or otherwise copy of this yet? I'm going to check with the local downtown bookstore tomorrow to see if it's available for special-order.

Many thanks, Jim.

Any update on this? Has anybody else besides GA run into this problem? I'm still able to sign on and post once, then I start getting the IPS driver error message again.

Dave Douglas weighs in.

Yes, on Impulse--should still be available in the Verve LPR series. If you ever see the Impulse sequel MORE OF... floating around used at a halfway decent price, that's worth snagging as well. (I think it's been out only as an import on CD.) The date Dan mentions is a sweet one too. This Night Lights show from a couple years back covers her 1950s and 60s recordings.

Found a couple of cool videos from Cole's TV show around this time that are related to the movie: Cole and Mahalia Jackson doing a duet of "Steal Away," and Cole and a young Billy Preston trading off on "Blueberry Hill." Posted them on the program's archive page.

It's very odd... I'm sometimes able to get in and post, and sometimes I still can't get any access to the board at all. I have to come in through a roundabout way (a PM e-mail message)...and then I'm booted out again after I post once or twice.

Part Two of this article is now posted.

Spellbound is the one I couldn't track down. "East Meets West: Ahmed Abdul-Malik" is now archived.

I live!! I live!! :rsmile:

Bizarre! Two minutes ago I still got that message... but just now I successfully logged in. On Saturday I was able to log in and make one post, then ran into the driver-error message again... let's see what happens now.

Thought there was only one, but no, unfortunately I couldn't track it down. Hoping to find it some day for a possible sequel. I'll post the archive link tomorrow morning.

Bassist Ahmed Abdul-Malik played with pianists Randy Weston and Thelonious Monk in the 1950s before going on to make a handful of dates that helped forge a path for the fusion of jazz with world music. “American jazz is dull,” he told Metronome in 1958. “‘The Man I Love’ things have all been said before… now is the time to transfuse new blood–foreign scales, foreign melodic lines, the Oriental flavor.” His ensuing albums such as East Meets West, Jazz Sahara, and The Music Of Ahmed Abdul-Malik and Sounds of Africa (combined on the CD reissue Jazz Sounds of Africa) employed both ethnic musicians and hardbop greats like Johnny Griffin and Lee Morgan, opening a way that artists such as Don Cherry and Ornette Coleman would later follow in the 1970s. "East Meets West: Ahmed Abdul-Malik" airs tonight at 11:05 p.m. EST on WFIU and at 9 p.m. Central Time on WNIN-Evansville. It also airs Sunday evening at 10 EST on Michigan's Blue Lake Public Radio. The program will be posted for permanent online listening Monday morning in the Night Lights archives. You can watch Malik playing bass with Thelonious Monk on this episode's home page. Next week: "Side Monk."