porcy62

That's what I thought. You have to change your job: from jazz listener to jazz cleaner

I found this article on Michael Fremer's website. http://www.musicangle.com/index.php I don't know how it works, it seems too tricky, expensive and long, but if it fullfills what promises it well worth to try. (on some of your Lexington deep groove!!) I post it here all together for the lazy guy Editor’s Note (MF): While this article is almost ten years old, to my knowledge it still offers one of the most comprehensive and effective record cleaning regimens ever published. Nitty Gritty’s “First” cleaning fluid, mentioned in the piece, is no longer available. While it was extremely effective, it was environmentally unfriendly and had to be taken off the market. In addition, many new, non-isopropyl based cleaning fluids (alcohol is still used in most of them, just not isopropyl, which is said to dry up vinyl plasticizers) are now available. Even if you don’t follow the regimen precisely, the principles are worth noting. I use Disc Doctor fluid and applicator pads and have incorporated them into the regimen outlined by Michael Wayne in this story. Disc Doctor must be used in conjunction with a final distilled water wash and dry. There are other fluids on the market worth considering, including Record Research Labs (distributed by Musical Surroundings) and L’Art Du Son (available from themusic.com). Whichever fluid you use, consider the manufacturer’s recommended application procedure, read Mr. Wayne’s article and use both to come up with a procedure that works for you. Zen and the Art of Record Cleaning Made Difficult By Michael Wayne You’ve finally secured a copy of that elusive Golden Era record you’ve sought for so long. It cost you more than a set of tires for a Porsche 959. Now you are ready to reap the rewards of your unrelenting efforts; but first, since you consider yourself a well informed audiophile record collector, you decide to vacuum wash your treasured disc, both to make certain you hear nothing but its unvitiated analog beauty, and because you vaguely recall reading something somewhere about the potential record damaging dangers of playing uncleaned records. Dutifully you apply your favorite fluid to the disc—perhaps using a brush to scrub and spread the fluid about. You set the machine to vacuum, and in a mere few revolutions, you are at last ready to revel in the sonic ecstasy of your new vinyl treasure. By the end of side one, a slight but persistent vinyl noise and a subtly cloudy musical presentation fill you with doubt and nascent frustration. Vinyl angst has set in. Wasn’t this LP supposed to be “Super-mint,” or “AAA-Ultra-Plus”— or some such hyperbole? It was certainly expensive enough. Burned again? Perhaps another cleaning cycle might do the trick. Doggedly, you repeat the ritual, and this time you are reassured. Why yes, more of that whooshy background is gone, and darn if the entire soundstage hasn’t increased in scope and definition. The instruments sound richer and timbrally more accurate. Ah! Your troubled soul begins to relax. Another few cleanings and perhaps even that thin hiss which has new replaced the intial whoosh will disappear; the soundstage and hall reverb will become even more evident and pure. This disc may yet sound the way your dealer “Sid the Groovemeister” promised it would. Keep dreaming, Alice. Wonderland ever beckons the desperate. Your fastidious but flawed, and woefully incomplete cleaning attempts may have insured that you never experience the full potential of your cherished record. You may as well go digital. Indeed, the very first alarm signaling a potentially serious record cleaning problem sounds simultaneously with improvements heard after the first cleaning cycle. It indicates that the cleansing attempt was only partially successful. In place of the large, original groove contaminants, there now are smaller, possibly stickier ones, to which cleaning fluid has bonded chemically and, if the record is played after this single cleaning cycle, probably thermodynamically as well, due to the intense heat and pressure generated by the stylus traveling through the groove. Play a record with foreign matter sticking to its grooves, and you run the risk of welding it in permanently. The solution, of course, is to start with a completely and perfectly clean disc. Let’s examine a few widely held misconceptions about record cleaning. The first is that vacuum cleaning is sufficient and complete. In fact, it may be, but only in those few special cases where the contaminants are primarily dust and nothing more. When a disc has been subjected to an environment of tobacco smoke, fingerprint oils (which over time tend to harden and solidify on a vinyl surface), silicone record cleaning cloths (true groove polluting monsters), God knows-what cleaning fluids and brushes, and a variety of other sticky, gummy substances, a simply vacuum cleaning cycle is unlikely to do the trick. Using the techniques described in this article, I have regularly taken vacuumed discs and removed globs of yellow-brownish gooey substances from the supposedly “clean” record grooves. The safe and highly effective cleaning techniques described here, do require some time and effort, but since when has that stopped analogue devotees? The cleaning approach I recommend is based upon the following principles and strategies: 1) Use of a chemically wide spectrum of cleaning fluids. No single fluid is completely effective in removing all possible types of disc contaminants. To insure effective cleaning, several fluids must be used. Whatever one fluid cannot clean well, another fluid must be used which can. As Myles Astor has demonstrated (in his article “Record Cleaning Fluids,” Sounds Like #8, May 1990. This is the finest article to date on the subject of record cleaning fluid chemistry and its sonic consequences), groove wall interactions occur on a molecular level, and like it or not, any and every cleaning fluid will leave some amount of itself behind. In order to keep residues to a minimum, the cleaning solution used in each step must dissolve the one used previously. This minimizes or prevents audible cleaning fluid residue signatures such as low level “whoosh” and high pitched hiss. 2) Minimal contamination of final brushes. The surface of the vacuum cleaning brush should only come into contact with a purely clean disc surface, otherwise it will transfer contaminants from record to record, absorbing and smearing more and more goo as it goes. To accomplish this, prior to disc vacuuming we must use a fluid application/absorption/groove scrubbing device, with replaceable and disposable pads. In this regimen, vacuum cleaning is the last step, the purpose of which is to remove fluids rather than gross contaminants and debris from the record surface. This insures that the vacuum suction pads will not spread dirt from disc to disc. TOOLS, SUPPLIES AND PREPARATION You will need several inexpensive items, the first of which is a used turntable. It need not be operational, but it will ease your task greatly if it is—a high torque model being preferable. Your only concern is a platform that rotates, or may be easily rotated. I found an old Pioneer PL-35 belt drive for ten bucks. Its moderate torque drive works very well in this application. Do not use your primary turntable for these procedures, due to the stress and wear which will be exerted on the main bearing and suspension. You’ll also need two record mats. Wash one with dishwashing liquid, rinse, then rinse again with any alcohol based record cleaning solution (or use a diluted alcohol solution). You want to remove all residues from this mat. Then dry it carefully. This will be your clean mat; it must come into contact with only the cleaned side of a record. Keep your fingers off of the record supporting surface. The second mat will be used only under the uncleaned side of a record. Step 1 in this cleaning procedure requires sterile cotton pads. I use quilted cotton squares sold for use with infants and for cosmetics application. You can use plain cotton wadding sold in drug stores but it is trickier to handle and more expensive. Buy a number of small nylon bristle brushes, which will be used to clean the various record brushes used throughout the procedure. I use fingernail brushes, but any small brush with a handle, which keeps your fingers from touching the bristles will do. You’ll also need a small, clean bowl in which to soak the brushes. First wash the bristle brushes, as you washed the clean record mat, but be sure not to scrub them with your hands; instead, use another brush and rub them together. Pour some undiluted isopropyl alcohol into the bowl and soak the brushes for about 15 minutes. Since you’ll be making frequent use of these bristle-brushes to wipe your record brushes clean, you want to make sure they carry no lubricants and/or contaminants which could be transferred from brush to brush and onto the record surface. You’ll be using several record cleaning hand brushes. The first can be any sort of dust grabbing felt or carbon fiber brush, such as an old Discwasher, Parastat, etc. It will be used only for top layer dust removal of an uncleaned disc surface. Never use it on a cleaned disc. The other brushes you’ll need are two Allsop Orbitracs (the Orbitrac was out of production when this piece originally ran, but is now again in production, in part due to my lobbying and agitation. However, it now uses easily replaceable cartridges, so one Orbitrac will do, but be sure to use different cartridges for the two steps in Wayne’s piece—MF). This is the most effective record groove scrubbing device I have tested to date, and it is crucial to successfully accomplishing the procedure described here. The key to the Orbitrac’s superb effectiveness is its pads which change from pure white to sickly yellow as they absorb groove contaminants. The Orbitrac’s pads are replaceable. Other hand brushes are nothing more than highly effective grease applicators, spreading unwanted substances from one disc to the next. Obtain several handsized spray bottles—preferably chemistry lab grade glass bottles—if you can find them. Glass is basically inert and will not react with the various solutions we’ll be using. I have also used plastic bottles with no problems. Be sure to rinse the interior of each spray bottle—including the intake stem—several times with isopropyl alcohol, finishing with Nitty-Gritty First solution. Since the cleaning solutions which end up on your records will come from these bottles, be very certain that they are contaminant free. Once these atomizer bottles are clean and dry, fill one with Nitty Gritty First fluid, then quickly cap the original supply bottle and apply tape around the cap seam to help prevent evaporation. This is the solution to be used in step 1. Forr step 2 you may use any record cleaning solution you wish as long as it is not the same as the solution you apply when vacuuming your discs (principle 1). I prefer alcohol bearing fluids since they are the most effective in cleaning raw, dirty records. The solution I use for step 2 consists of 80% VPI Record Cleaning Fluid and 20% of the purest alcohol I can obtain. I advise against using drug store grade 91% isopropyl alcohol as I have found that it leaves a substantial residue. If you can’t obtain chemically pure alcohol (99% or better), you may safely use a grain alcohol such as Everclear (94%), which is sold in liquor stores to those harty (or foolish) enough to use it for other than practical applications. Do not use vodka. THE PROCESS Step 1 The first step is of key importance. If carried out effectively, the entire process will be more successful. Begin by removing the loose dust on the record surface with your felt brush (Discwasher etc.). You simply want to wipe off some surface dust. Be sure to place your “dirty” record mat—not the clean mat—on your cleaning turntable. Next, spray some First fluid on some cotton wadding. If using quilted cotton squares (preferred), make a three layer pad, being careful not to touch the surface, which will come into contact with the disc. As the record rotates, spray First directly on the lead-in groove area of the record’s surface, while holding the pad against the same section. Since this maneuver requires some experience to perfect, you might want to practice on a few reject LPs. Never touch the part of the cotton pad or wadding which comes into contact with the record surface. The aim here is to remove contaminants, not to reapply them. Also, never use the part of the cotton wad you grip as a cleaning surface. The appropriately named Nitty-Gritty First solution is the most effective solvent I have ever tested for initial loosening of oily, gummy, contaminants such as tobacco tar, silicone cloth goop, hand oils, and the like. It also effectively removes used record store price stickers from album jackets, and the glue sometimes left behind if you do manage to peel them off. After several revolutions you’ll have a good idea of how clean or dirty the disc really is. Dirty discs of the tobacco/hand oil/silicone/unknown-substance-from-Mars variety will leave a yellow-brownish (or sometimes grey-blackish) band smeared across your cotton pad. If your previously vacuumed disc reveals this kind of filth, you will instantly know the error of your ways. Clean the outer section again, using either a clean, untouched portion of your cotton pad, or a fresh one. Continue until further passes no longer deposit any filth on the pad. Once you have satisfactorily cleaned the outer edge, repeat the process in sections, moving inward to the center of the disc. Be careful no to touch the contact surface of the cotton pad, and use a fresh one whenever it begins to show even a faint yellow stain. Don’t cheap out here. You will find that the record’s filthiest portions—often by a wide margin—are the outer and inner areas. Avoid getting any cleaning fluid on the record label, which is liable to bleach and turn white. Having finished applying and wiping an entire record side with moderate to large amounts of First, you may notice some wet spots. Allow them to evaporate dry. This is the only fluid with which you may do this. NEVER ALLOW ANY OTHER FLUIDS TO EVAPORATE DRY ON A DISC SURFACE. All fluids must either be absorbed, vacuumed, or diluted by other fluids lest they lelave a groove fouling residue. Letting First evaporate actually increases its effectiveness since the remaining residue continues to loosen foreign contaminants from the groove walls. Step 2 Here we’ll wash away First residue, microscopic particulate matter, and any remaining substances not loosened by step one. We’ll also effectively but gently scrub the vinyl, cleaning down to the groove bottom—something plain vacuuming does not accomplish. We’ll do this using the Orbitrac. But first you must brush the surface of a virgin Orbitrac pad with one of the previously mentioned hand brushes, in order to remove lint and any other large particles possibly trapped in the pad filaments. Brush carefully: a hard particle trapped in an Orbitrac pad can scratch a disc surface. We will be using two Orbitracs: one for cleaning, the other for mopping and drying. After you’ve brushed the Orbitrac pad, spray it wi some of the alcohol based fluid you’ve previously prepared. Use enough to make it wet, but not saturated to the point where it drips. Turn off the turntable. Take a small portion of cotton wadding (or wear a loose, clean plastic glove) and use it to apply enough pressure against the record edge to hold it stationary. Don’t let your bare finger touch the record itself. Following the simple directions which come with the Orbitrac, rotate it over the record using your free hand. After several revolutions, stop and examine the Orbitrac’s pad. If only the faintest signs of yellow show, quickly take a second bristle brush and vigorously brush the pad surface. Reapply the alcohol-based fluid to the Orbitrac and repeat the above. If, on the other hand, your initial pad examination turns up clearly yellow or yellow-brownish (or worse) stains, that is an indication that you have not successfully carried out step one: your disc is still filthy and will foul every brush surface with which it comes into contact—including your vacuum suction brush. Repeat Step one—or switch to CDs. When you return to Step 2 be sure to start with a fresh Orbitrac pad. When your Orbitrac-ing leaves no yellow on the pad, use the second Orbitrac to dry the disc. Start with a dry pad and don’t worry if the disc is not bone dry when you’re done. Wipe the wet-cleaning Orbitrac pad with one of the bristle brushes, spray some fluid on the Orbitrac pad and repeat the wet cleaning followed by the dry one. Next, we’ll vacuum (at last!). The purpose of the drying Orbitrac is to remove any gross contaminants from the record. The vacuum’s only purpose is to remove minute levels of fluid residue, which is all that should remain once you’ve completed step one’s top-of-the groove wall pre-cleaning and step two’s deep-groove-wall Orbitrac cleaning. Step 3 Simply apply your fluid of choice and vacuum. I prefer to evenly spread a large quantity of VPI record cleaning fluid across the disc using a non-abrasive felt applicator like the one Audio Advisor supplies with the Nitty Gritty vacuum machines. Stiffer brushes—the ones VPI packs with its machines—are also effective. A large quantity of fluid insures both complete groove penetration and the removal of anything remaining in the grooves. Extra fluid also requires longer vacuuming time, which also increases the chances of getting everything sucked out of the grooves. Observe the disc being vacuumed under good lightning: you’ll find that thorough fluid removal requires more revolutions than you probably thought necessary. What appear to be groove modulations may actually be residual fluid wedged into tiny crevices. Remember, any fluid not sucked from the grooves may obscure low level resolution and inner detail or result in audible noise. Once the record is dry, re-apply fluid and vacuum a second time. When you repeat step 1 to clean the opposite side of the disc, be sure to use the clean record mat under the just-cleaned side of the record. If you own a VPI cleaning machine, be sure to place the clean mat under the just cleaned side when you vacuum. Use the clean mat for all subsequent vacuum cleanings of records you have washed using this regimen. FINAL TIPS There is one additional step you can take to make this cleaning regimen even more effective. Obtain a supply of triple distilled water (Triple distilled water, available at some pharmacies, is not easy to come by: when I tried to obtain some in NYC, the pharmacist accused me of being either an abortionist or an intravenous drug user. In fact, it requires a doctor’s prescription in New York. Perhaps it is easier to obtain where you live, either at a pharmacy, or a chemical supply house. You could use plain distilled water, but be careful: if it hasn’t been properly manufactured, you could leave a residue of noise, depositing minerals in the grooves, thus defeating the entire purpose of this complex, time consuming procedure—MF). Use it between each step described above, to purge or effectively dilute all chemical residues remaining in the grooves. So, after performing step 1, repeat with triple distilled water using cotton wadding or pads. After performing step 2, follow up with triple distilled water. After your first vacuuming, do likewise. Now that you have a really clean record, it makes no sense to return it to its original smelly, oily, decades old vinyl-leaching inner sleeve. Use a fresh, new sleeve (I like rice paper ones—MF). You can also clean disc covers quite effectively using Formula 409 and plain old paper towels. Avoid using Fantastic, which contains a powerful pine perfume that seems to stick to album covers forever. 409 will remove the aged, mildew-moss appearing wear, as well as a good deal of ring wear. Try it. Be sure to allow the cover to dry thoroughly before replacing it on your shelf or the residual moisture may grow mildew. When your cleaning session is over, take yet another bristle brush and wipe your final fluid applicator so it dries quickly. Run the vacuum to allow the suction nozzle and its pads to dry. If you own a manual machine such as a Record Doctor, gently brush the suction pads to and fro as you run the vacuum. While the entire process described herein may seem hopelessly complex, in practice it is logical and straightforward, albeit time consuming. Do no take short cuts: they will lessen the effectiveness of the procedure and may lead to the contamination of record cleaning pads and the soiling of all subsequent discs which come into contact with them. Unless the record is very clean to begin with, follow the entire procedure or don’t bother at all. Follow these instructions carefully and you’re sure to be pleased with the results.

I am checkin' out a bunch of original Lps just received from the States. Now under the lenses (and on the turntable) : HORACE SILVER "The Stylings of Silver" (West 63rd St.) deep Groove, mono. The forwarded cymbals are here, but I am not so upset Before I checked out an original Impulse done by RVG: S. ROLLINS "On Impulse", that Rudy loved and loves cymbals, but still I am not so upset. Consider Manfred Eichler: he hates cymbals

I noted the poor sound quality of Candid Mingus cds some times ago, I sold them and got the Mosaic Lp. I am glad there is a "scientific explanation" for my bad feeling with cd. BTW in my experience Candid cd aren't the best for sound quality. I just compared "We Insist!" with the original Lp, big difference! Candid catalog deserve a fine remastering.

Do you mean you haven't this set? You have to see a doctor very soon, or save the money and buy it!!! B-)

Just received few Atlantic original pressing (O.Coleman and Mingus). Let's say I am not very impressed. I supposed the reissues aren't better. Maybe it worths only if you find a mono original copy, just for filling the classic Atlantic hole between the speakers. I am wondering what the sound man was smoking during the Atlantic sessions.

I definitely agree with you!!! When I bought it several years ago, each track was a discovery!!!

Wolf, what about the first pressing of this Lps, I have the Impulse, and they sound great to me. Did you listen to the Speaker's Corner reissues? And the TM original?

Mingus is one of my favourite musician. Usually I found Lp's sound more relaxin, less aggressive and tiring than cd's, I mean I can listen at music for a longer time. The poorest sound quality is the Debut recordings (cd) probably due to the old digital mastering, the Mosaic (Lp) are great as usual as well as the Impulse (original Lp), the Atlantic (cd) is musically great, but a little harsch. This is my modest opinion. I am not saying Lp is always better than cd, some Lps sound awful and the cd reissues are a big improvement, the latest Impulse cds sound usually good to my ears (but I did not listen to Mingus' one). Generally speaking I don't like the"hi end" sound, expecially with bands like Mingus' one, I feel I loose something of the "whole", if you understand what I mean. If your system is too "X-ray" (like some digital mastering tend to be) you can loose the cohesion and the excitment of the music, too much dinamic, too much bass, too much of everything, you loose the balance. These masterings remember me a incapable sound engineer during a concert: he just moves up all faders without a logic. Anyway, all the Mingus recordings are worth of a serious listening, cd or vinyl!!!

I have the cd box set of Atlantic recordings, (and the Debut box set, the Mosaic CBS Lp box sets and the Mosaic Candid Lp box sets, plus Tijuana Moods, Black Saints, Mingus Mingus Mingus and some others) so I am not questioning about the value of music, but the possibly better sound of Lp. Since this is is the Vinyl Frontier it seems to me I was pretty clear in my post. For some people in this forum the sound quality does matter.

I Know you guys are far beyond this: you check how many RVG's fingerprints is possible to find on a very, very early pressing, and Ruppli's and Cuscuna's Book substituted your bible near the bed ages ago, but a useful link for some illiterate like me, with pictures. http://www.ronpenndorf.com/labelography.html

I noted that most of the Mingus Atlantic Recordings are available at AcousticSound. Do you know them? I suspect they are mastered by Rhino, and I don't know nothing about sound quality, masters, ecc. Did you ever compare them with originals? I have the Atlantic Coltrane box and I think the sound is fair, but I never compared it with originals. Tha main question is : Is it really worth, musically speaking, spend time and money on Mingus originals? thanks

THE GRIFFITH PARK COLLECTION 2 IN CONCERT S. CLARKE C. COREA J. HENDERSON F. HUBBARD L. WHITE Never know it existed!!!

Steve Reid "RHYTHMATISM"

Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy "I Only Have Eyes For You" ECM. I simply forgot how many joy this record gave to me during the late 80's

Thanks!!! I could not bid till the very last minute due to time zone: in Italy the ending time is usually in the middle of the night and I use to sleep. I put the max I am ready to pay, considering the average price on former auctions. The only price out of control was the Brooke's set, someone outbidded me for 2 bucks so I bidded again 2 bucks more, I was expecting to be outbid in the last minutes, I went to bed and the next morning I discovered I had to pay more than 300 dollars, definitely too much for this set. Another consideration: the Rivers set price is cheaper then the near mint copies of the original albums, (without considering the extra takes). The Blakey, Morgan and Mobley sets are hugely cheaper than the single Lps, apart some very late Liberty pressing. And Mosaics sets are usually well cared by the former owners, I would not say the same for most BN 50's and 60's Lp I see on eBay. So, if you want the music on vinyl Mosaic is the cheapest way to get it. If you want the music tout court cd sets are cheapest, and sometimes single cds are cheaper than Mosaic.

What I hate of rock (and sometimes jazz) box sets is the mix of alt and outtakes with official album. I loved the Velvet and the Dead box sets, full of demo and live unissued tracks but, at the same times I hate to dupe my Lps, so my vote for the best rock box set goes for the Hendrix, all unrealeased material, and you can have it even on vinyl!! Nuggets is great too, all unavailable music. BTW you should also listen to Chuck Berry's Chess Box sets and Little Richards "Speciality Sessions", all the singles togheter!!!

Thanks guys!!! I will tell you the story about my Lp's love. I growned in Lp era, but when I went to university, the lack of room forced me to leave my loved records in my parent's house like my old Thorens, (I loved that machine!). Lps are heavy and bulky for a student that change a tiny room with a more tiny room every six months!! I recorded them on cassettes and moved to college, where I could find some fellow who had Lps to record. Later I had to move to Rome for my job, and the same problem, room, prevent me to listen at vinyls, cds were getting cheaper so I went for them. I bought a bigger apartment, my first owned apartment, 6 years ago, and I recovered my old vinyls and the Thorens from my parent's garage. I also found a good used Lp store two blocks from home! Then I substituted the Thorens with a Linn and ... you know what happend afterwards!! I do not know if analog sound is always better than digital one, I do not compare every single Lp with cd to decide what is the best one, infact I had not duplicates, only when I found outtakes or alternate takes on cd. My first choice is always vinyl when is available at reasonable price, I would not buy a Mobley original mono pressing for 3000 bucks, the Mosaics seems to me a great alternative. I buy new cds of labels like Tzadik, Ecm, Label Bleu or italian jazz label like Red Records. I do listen to them, I like new music, but with old music I go for vinyl. I love the big colored covers, (Do you know someone who lost his times looking for people in "Sergent's Pepper's" cd cover without a microscope?) and I am getting older, I hate to use glasses for reading cd's notes!! With Lp I rediscovered the pure pleasure to listen at music. I do not care about moderate pops, clicks and hiss, on the contrary, sometimes I found it more "human". The relationship with Lp is more physical, you have to handle it with care, put the spike on the grooves and you can see it spinning. I found all this enjoyable. I work with computers, I am using a computer right now, I use them like useful machines to make my life more confortable, but a turntable is not only a machine, it's a pleasure to look at. Maybe I am only an old "stupid" romantic guy worried to ageing and the analog era remembers me when I was young. If so, I do not see any problems for anybody rather than me and my wife that is scared to handle my Lps. My son loves my vinyl mania, infact when I bought the Classic reissues of Led Zeppelin he got my old cds!!! P.S. Wolff, I am monitoring the Cd sets on Ebay, as soon I will have a correct idea of their value, I will put them on sale here, at a reasonable price.

Sorry guys, but I can pay with credit card and save the cost of shipping, that is more than 25/30 bucks for an insuranced air shipping from US to Italy, I can't loose the chance. Anyway I lost the Mobley, Redd, Baker, Jones and Monk. An advise: I am not interested in pre bop Jazz. See ya on eBay. B-) BTW anybody interested in Mosaic CD sets?

I say Marantz and Rotel, good sounding and strong machine. Probably some Sony too, but I never listen to them.

It depends, what is your budget?

Dear Chuck, I think the people on this thread are interested in music. Is it harmful for you if we are interested also in discussing minor technical matters like this? I do not like to be call "stupid" on a board. I though I could find here "stupid mates" for discussing "stupid thing" and change "stupid informations" like these. I do not see any danger for the music industry and your business, on the contrary. I do not see any danger for human beings in this "stupid" hobby, (we are not killing or insulting or polluting). Is it wrong to care of the money you invest in the music? I do not know, I do not care, if I were really interested in money, I would buy houses or some Hulliburton's stocks. Anyway the cheapest way "to care the delivery of the music" as you said would be to copy a cd and you do not like it, do you? (as you do not like the european copyright laws). BTW I am worried about a lot of things like my children health, pollution and the next american elections, the "digital curse" does not awake me in the middle of the night.

Actually, I had to decide if change my old car or buy a Burmester, you know what happened!! BTW I use a motorbike for my move

I bought a Burmester two years ago, and I am very happy of it, definitely a better focus, expecially on bass. All system sounds more natural, airy, less compressed. Obviously I am talking of nuance. I can't compare it with the difference I had when I changed my old Thorens Td 166 with a Lynn Lp12. here you have the link http://www.burmester.de/english/components...tioner-948.html

Frank Zappa "You Are What You Is"