Trouble ahead for Lance Armstrong

[Dan Gould]

This is really amazing. You can't let facts get in the way - the fact is that there are no findings you would accept, if they clear Armstrong.

In blind adherence to your faith, its analagous to die-hard Barry Bonds fans - the Mitchell report might state that he injected steroids in the dugout during batting practice, in full view of the Pope, who was visiting, and they'd say "I don't believe it - baseball hates Barry and has it in for him and ... well, I just don't believe it!"

[brownie]

Dan, hold your horse!!!

From The Chicago Tribune today:

Clean bill on Armstrong draws fire

Critics call Dutch report incomplete

By Alan Abrahamson

Tribune Newspapers: Los Angeles Times

Published June 1, 2006

A Dutch investigator's report that purports to clear Lance Armstrong of using performance-enhancing substances in the 1999 Tour de France ignited a controversy that roared through Europe and across the Atlantic on Wednesday, spotlighting the complexities and schisms that have split a sport awash in allegations of doping.

The report, commissioned last year by the International Cycling Union after a French news account that six Armstrong urine samples from 1999 had tested positive in 2004 for the blood-booster EPO, asserted those tests were conducted so improperly it would be "completely irresponsible" to suggest they amounted to "evidence of anything."

The 132-page report, made public Wednesday, was not immediately available. But according to news accounts, Dutch lawyer Emile Vrijman said his report "exonerates Lance Armstrong completely" with regard to the 1999 allegations. Armstrong, who has repeatedly denied the use of banned substances, said in a statement that Vrijman's report "confirms my innocence."

But the World Anti-Doping Agency, in Montreal, issued a statement expressing "grave concern and strong disappointment." WADA, the statement also said, "continues to stress its concern that an investigation into the matter must consider all aspects," including "the question of whether anti-doping rules were violated by athletes."

WADA Chairman Dick Pound, who has long asserted the cycling federation leaked the 1999 doping forms to the French newspaper L'Equipe, questioned how Vrijman had concluded that one of the top anti-doping labs in the world--the French national lab--had so thoroughly botched tests.

Vrijman's report, for instance, asserts there's no way to know if the samples had been spiked with a banned substance, according to news accounts, which also said the report raises the possibility of misconduct by WADA and the lab.

In a telephone interview, Pound said of the cycling federation: "They weren't interested in what happened, only in how the information became public and--surprise, surprise--cleared the only organization that made it possible for this thing to happen. To say that [cycling federation] had no role--that's nuts."

The Swiss-based federation said its officials had "learned with great surprise" the "declarations conveyed to the Dutch press by Mr. Emile Vrijman," making clear the report's release was "prematurely voiced" and the federation was still "waiting to receive the definite version."

On Aug. 23, L'Equipe reported that six of Armstrong's 1999 samples had come back positive for EPO when retested in 2004. The 1999 Tour marked the first of Armstrong's seven straight Tour wins. The French newspaper's probe was based on what doping authorities call the B sample, the second half of urine samples used in doping tests. The A samples were used up in 1999. The B samples were among those hauled out of deep freeze in 2004 to perfect the French lab's EPO testing procedures.

Armstrong's critics maintained the L'Equipe story offered evidence pointing to doping but acknowledged that the B samples alone could not make a formal doping case against him. Armstrong has said he was the target of a "witch hunt."

I have already stated that I had had private - and very confidential - informations on Lance Armstrong being 'helped' to victories and have full confidence in the sources. This did not refer to the 1999 (nor with the 2004 one) Tour de France which is the case here but with another one.

When and if proved wrong, I'll be ready to apologize. We're a long way from that day!

[troyk]

I have already stated that I had had private - and very confidential - informations on Lance Armstrong being 'helped' to victories and have full confidence in the sources. This did not refer to the 1999 (nor with the 2004 one) Tour de France which is the case here but with another one.

When and if proved wrong, I'll be ready to apologize. We're a long way from that day!

You know I have private and ulimate evidence that he is clean. Therefore he is obviously clean until you can refute this evidence that I am not at liberty to disclose.

How does that sit with you from the other side of the table?

[sheldonm]

I personally know Lance and he wishes you guys could resolve your differences. He also told me he is innocent of these charges.

m~

[P.L.M]

I know too personnally LANCE.

And he has told me, when we were smoking some pot, one day (I think it was during a day of rest on the tour 2002, not sure exactly when, we was so high this day), that if they call him "bionic man" it was for a reason.

We laugh a lot (but I think the grass was the main reason of these laughs).

Ha, ha LANCE, ugly bastard, you kill me every time (if I may say) with your cynism (but, only the victory count, the rest is litterature - like all these dirty french, uses to say).

Edited June 1, 2006 by P.L.M

[king ubu]

must be hard to get to grips with the fact that not every all american hero is a hero... jimmy didn't shoot liberty... was john who did...

[Dan Gould]

must be hard to get to grips with the fact that not every all american hero is a hero... jimmy didn't shoot liberty... was john who did...

Seems to me the same thing can be said, that certain non-Americans simply cannot stand that an American has dominated a European sport, and no matter what is shown, he will always be guilty.

Of being an American dominating a European sport.

[king ubu]

must be hard to get to grips with the fact that not every all american hero is a hero... jimmy didn't shoot liberty... was john who did...

Seems to me the same thing can be said, that certain non-Americans simply cannot stand that an American has dominated a European sport, and no matter what is shown, he will always be guilty.

Of being an American dominating a European sport.

the attitude towards sport (any kinds of) is the only known bound between me and sir winston...

[sheldonm]

must be hard to get to grips with the fact that not every all american hero is a hero... jimmy didn't shoot liberty... was john who did...

Seems to me the same thing can be said, that certain non-Americans simply cannot stand that an American has dominated a European sport, and no matter what is shown, he will always be guilty.

Of being an American dominating a European sport.

Well, we do live in a society that revels in dragging a person through the mud (whether he's guilty or not), someone that maybe needs to be knocked down a bit (for his own good). I don't know if Lance took something, don't really care. If he did, that's sad and wrong....if he'd didn't, sad he has to deal with the bs. Either way, when he logs in here tonight, he's gonna be pissed we're talking about him.

m~

[brownie]

I have already stated that I had had private - and very confidential - informations on Lance Armstrong being 'helped' to victories and have full confidence in the sources. This did not refer to the 1999 (nor with the 2004 one) Tour de France which is the case here but with another one.

When and if proved wrong, I'll be ready to apologize. We're a long way from that day!

You know I have private and ulimate evidence that he is clean. Therefore he is obviously clean until you can refute this evidence that I am not at liberty to disclose.

How does that sit with you from the other side of the table?

So you sit on one side of the table, I sit on the other side. Looks like we will not change our opinions. Too bad!

Next question, what's for desert?

[RDK]

So did Lance finally admit to having stopped beating his wife?

Seriously, I have so little interest in Lance Armstrong or anything having to do with a sport where grown men ride bicycles...

but it does seem unfair to tarnish a man's reputation when no proof can be found (or apparently admitted to in a public forum ) against him.

[couw]

the report can be found online here

From what I gather after a quick glance is that the authors were unable to confirm whether proper procedures have been followed with respect to the testing of the 1999 samples. That's a wide open door of course as WADA and its laboratory have always stated that there are no second samples anymore, the samples are old, some already opened and whatever else. Theirs was set out to be a test of methodologies carried out furthermore to get an idea of how wide-spread the use of EPO may have been. The report once more states that UCI and only UCI is authorised to judge and discipline when it comes to doping and doping tests. There is quite some polemics in the report which make it pretty obvious that UCI paid for this independent investigation; WADA and the French Ministry likely see UCI as an emperor without clothes when it comes to clean sports, which may be why they did not cooperate to this investigation. In the end there is lots of blahblah on formalities and very little on the science; this is not about truth or other redeeming motives, but much more about Power and probably lots of Money.

[king ubu]

Seriously, I have so little interest in Lance Armstrong or anything having to do with a sport where grown men ride bicycles...

grown men patting, throwing and kicking around balls are just as stupid...

(that's not a defense of cycling, rather another offense at sports...)

[BruceH]

(((Yawn)))

[Indestructible!]

grown men patting, throwing and kicking around balls are just as stupid...

(that's not a defense of cycling, rather another offense at sports...)

Yep,

And grown men (and women) "patting, throwing, and kicking around" musical instruments "are just as stupid..."

Cheers,

Shane

[RDK]

grown men patting, throwing and kicking around balls are just as stupid...

(that's not a defense of cycling, rather another offense at sports...)

Yep,

And grown men (and women) "patting, throwing, and kicking around" musical instruments "are just as stupid..."

Cheers,

Shane

Hmmm. Funny that we don't think less of Bird or Art Pepper or whomever because they were on junk... the steroids of their day. -_-

[troyk]

It's different. Blood doping in cycling is cheating and makes a fraud of the sport. It is rampant in cycling and should be treated with scorn. Jazz musicians getting messed up on junk is self destructive.

If Lance cheated he deserves to lose the respect that he has earned by his amazing career and comeback from cancer. However, unless someone can prove that he did, I think the French should shut their fuckin' pie hole.

There is no way for him to prove that he didn't do something. He deserves the respect of anyone who cares about cycling or admires athletes until someone is able and willing to produce evidence. Preferrably not a tabloid news rag or a nation with a rich history of doped cycling champs...but not so many of note lately.

By the way, I actually love France and the French. I used to go frequently. My conversational French used to be decent. I haven't turned on them. I'm just aggrevated with this story.

[Claude]

WADA rejects report that cleared Armstrong

Result of investigation full of factual errors, Pound claims

The Associated Press

Updated: 6:31 p.m. ET June 2, 2006

MONTREAL - World Anti-Doping Agency chairman Dick Pound said Friday that a Dutch investigator’s report clearing Lance Armstrong from doping allegations made by a French newspaper is full of holes.

“They put as fact things that are suppositions, suspicions and possibilities,” Pound said.

Pound said WADA has “completely rejected” the report written by lawyer Emile Vrijman for the International Cycling Union (UCI). The report defended Armstrong against accusations that he used performance-enhancing drugs at the 1999 Tour de France.

He said the report had so many factual errors that “pointing them out would probably take as much space as the (132-page) report.” WADA will consider legal action against Vrijman and “any organization, including UCI, that may publicly adopt its conclusions.”

Pound said a complete, independent investigation was needed to determine whether the seven-time Tour champion used endurance-boosting erythropoietin, or EPO.

The cycling union appointed Vrijman in October to investigate the handling of urine samples from the 1999 Tour by a French anti-doping lab. His report released Wednesday exonerated Armstrong “completely” of any doping infractions.

The Paris-based sports daily L’Equipe reported in August that six of Armstrong’s samples tested positive for EPO. After the Vrijman report was released, the newspaper ran an editorial saying it stood by its original story.

There was no reliable test for EPO in 1999, but urine samples were preserved and analyzed later when improved testing technology was developed.

Pound said the UCI appeared to be more concerned with how the tests became public than whether Armstrong tested positive or not. He said other tests from the 1999 race were also positive, but names of the riders were never released.

It should be in the UCI’s interest to make positive tests known to keep up the sport’s credibility, he added.

Armstrong has denied ever using performance-enhancing drugs.

The American rider said this week he was the victim of a “witch hunt” by Pound, WADA, the French lab, the French ministry of sport, L’Equipe and Tour de France organizers to tarnish his reputation.

The Vrijman report found the tests were conducted improperly and that it was “completely irresponsible” to suggest they constitute evidence of doping.

It added that the French lab violated rules on athlete confidentiality by making public comments on the allegations and recommended a tribunal be convened to look at possible legal and ethical violations by WADA and the French lab.

Vrijman said no proper records were kept of the frozen samples and there was no way to determine if they had been tampered with.

Pound said the report was prepared by “a Dutch lawyer with no expertise” in doping control.

A WADA statement on Friday said the Vrijman report was “so lacking in professionalism and objectivity that it borders on the farcical.”

It added that Vrijman’s report was defamatory to WADA and the French anti-doping lab that tested Armstrong’s samples.

And WADA expressed “astonishment that the UCI would expect anyone to have the slightest confidence in the objectivity, methodology, analysis or conclusions of such a report.”

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13106022/

http://www.wada-ama.org

Edited June 3, 2006 by Claude

[brownie]

It's different. Blood doping in cycling is cheating and makes a fraud of the sport. It is rampant in cycling and should be treated with scorn. Jazz musicians getting messed up on junk is self destructive.

If Lance cheated he deserves to lose the respect that he has earned by his amazing career and comeback from cancer. However, unless someone can prove that he did, I think the French should shut their fuckin' pie hole.

There is no way for him to prove that he didn't do something. He deserves the respect of anyone who cares about cycling or admires athletes until someone is able and willing to produce evidence. Preferrably not a tabloid news rag or a nation with a rich history of doped cycling champs...but not so many of note lately.

By the way, I actually love France and the French. I used to go frequently. My conversational French used to be decent. I haven't turned on them. I'm just aggrevated with this story.

Too bad if you are aggravated with this story. I am getting bored with the whole thing myself

But why turn this into an anti-French tirade?

Because I'm French and posted this? And because a number of informations come from a French newspaper?

The newspaper L'Equipe is no 'tabloid news rag' but a fullsize and reputable newspaper that deals with sports only.

'L'Equipe' is also part of the publishing empire that organizes the Tour de France races. The TdF offices are housed inside the L'Equipe publishing grounds just outside Paris.

So when the paper publishes a story that speaks badly about the Tour, attention should be paid because you can be sure the story has been double (even triple) checked!

As for the current state of French cycling, may I point to the last French great by the name of Richard Virenque who retired recently.

Virenque - a national hero - was hounded by the Press for refusing to admit - in spite of the mounting evidence - that he was 'being helped'.

Virenque finally admitted that he took illegal substances, made peace with himself and with an adoring public.

Please pay attention to the Dick Pound statement that Claude posted. Dick Pound is the chairman of the World Anti-Doping Agency!

You say 'It's different'. I say Vive la Différence!

[troyk]

Richard Viranque's team was caught with a very large stockpile of EPO, growth hormones, testosterone and amphetamines during the Tour. Viranque never claimed (couldn't) that he wasn't doped, he only claimed that he didn't know he had been doped. Testimony to the contrary claimed that he was integral to the operation. He later admitted it.

Lance was tested every racing day of his cycling career and never had a finding. No drugs were ever found with him or his team. I don't know how you can compare the two.

When I said that "it's different" what I was referring to is; cyclist doping and jazz musicians taking junk. It's sad when jazz musicians (or anyone) destroys themselves with drugs. It's fraud and cheating with competitive atheletes do it to win a race. I'm 100% opposed to it. When Tyler Hamilton failed his tests, I didn't defend him. When there is credible evidence that Lance Armstrong cheated, I'll not defend him either. Until then, I think it's in very poor taste to continue to accuse him.

And please don't draw parallels to Viranque until we've got some similar findings.

[couw]

Was Virenque ever tested positive?

[P.L.M]

No. He just admited that he was on dope. Cry a good bit. Get suspended and come-back like a heros, winning one last red and white jersey for his last tour.

In the contrary, Armstrong has been find "positif" not by the "proper authority" but by a newspaper.

But it's just the same to me.

ARMSTRONG was on dope.

Because lot of people has testified, that he has been control positif "officially" once (but he has a note from a "doctor" that he could take the medecine) and, simply, because ALL WINNERS of "Le Tour de France" was MORE OR LESS on DOPE (COPI, ANQUETIL, HINAULT, LEMOND, the poor PANTANI and many, many more).

NO ONE can win such a race only by eating "white bread" and drinking "clear water".

Everybody knows that, particularly all those who run the race.

The sole fact that ARMSTRONG has been associated to the evil "doctor" FERRARI is the only real proove that we needed to know. Of course, he has seen the good doctor for "nutritional" advise.

Like all the soccer team of JUVENTUS DE TURIN during the nineties. And many others soccer players or racer or... name it.

Edited June 3, 2006 by P.L.M

[brownie]

Lance was tested every racing day of his cycling career and never had a finding. No drugs were ever found with him or his team.

Lance Armstrong was tested positive during the 1999 Tour de France. He tested positive for the corcicoid triacinolone which he claimed he had taken to treat saddle sores. Armstrong had not declared his use of this skin cream prior to the test, in violation of cycling rules.

However his explanation was accepted by the very lenient International Cycling Union.

[brownie]

Was Virenque ever tested positive?

He was never tested positive

Partly because the doping tests at the time were not as thorough as they try to be by now.

Many teams (and that goes mostly for Armstrong's teams) used (and probably still use) better performance-enhancing drugs that fail to be detected by anti-doping investigations.

Virenque was a member of the Festina team whose health assistant Willy Voet was arrested as the Tour de France 1998 was getting under way. Voet had with him large quantities of prescription drugs and illegal drugs used for doping.

Voet named Virenque as one of the users. The rider denied he had used the substances intentionally.

No one bought that version. Virenque later confessed having doped himself.

[BruceH]

Wasn't Armstrong cleared?