Charlie Christian

[Big Beat Steve]

In other words, the above 4-CD set is for newbies and completists only, as those who've already been into C.C. during the days when vinyl ruled 100% will have most of this anyway.

(Lest anyone chimes in: Yes, I am not one of those who drools over remastering gadgets in search of 0.1% sound improvements compared to previous releases After all there must be some sort of reasonable correlation between money spent and improvement received)

Edited May 24, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[king ubu]

so me being kind of a newbie (hey, I was born several decades after Christian had died - don't blame me for that, Mr Steve!), it would be best to get the Columbia and the JSP boxes, I guess?

I've had the two old Columbia discs for a long time but haven't gotten that box yet although it's been on my list ever since it came out... anyway, there's some kind of Definitive sale around here, thus I wondered should I get their live box, but it seems the JSP might be the better choice, no?

As for the studio, it's pretty obvious I'll get the Sony/Columbia, rather than the pirate version.

[Big Beat Steve]

so me being kind of a newbie (hey, I was born several decades after Christian had died - don't blame me for that, Mr Steve!) ...?

Hey, so was I (born almost 2 decades after Charlie C.'s death), but no offense meant - when I said "newbie" I meant "Charlie Christian recording newbie" (no matter how long you've been into digging jazz overall). Because sadly it looks like there is not very much on these boxes that you do not have yet if you have the "usual" suspects, i.e. the Minton's sessions and those Benny Goodman Sextet recordings, broadcasts, rehearsals, etc. that have been around in various reissue guises through the years. Wish there was more that's a real first-time release or reissue ...

[king ubu]

But just to make sure once more:

I'll try and get hold of the Columbia box (via Amazon Marketplace - seems it's been OOP for a while and I didn't even notice...), and I have the OJC Gillespie/Christian "After Hours", nothing else.

So with that, the JSP would be mostly or all new material, or does the Columbia contain lots of broadcasts and rehearsal material as well?

[Chuck Nessa]

You need the JSP in addition to the others. It might duplicate some/all of the OJC (don't remember) but the rest is fine.

[Fer Urbina]

But just to make sure once more:

I'll try and get hold of the Columbia box (via Amazon Marketplace - seems it's been OOP for a while and I didn't even notice...), and I have the OJC Gillespie/Christian "After Hours", nothing else.

So with that, the JSP would be mostly or all new material, or does the Columbia contain lots of broadcasts and rehearsal material as well?

COLUMBIA - Only studio tracks, and not all of the music, IIRC. I think the "Benny's Bugle" rehearsal sequence is not complete in the Sony/Legacy set (it is in Jazz Unlimited JUCD 2013). Also, the takes of "I Found A New Baby" are incorrect: alternate is master and viceversa. There's some rehearsal material, but the crown jewel IMHO is the complete warm-up leading to the Smooth One/Air Mail Special session, from 1941.

LIVE MATERIAL - Bear in mind that there are no "new" tracks on any of the reissues. Goodman and co (most of the music is by Goodman's combos) played on radio and concerts the same tunes they recorded, so you may find different solos, but not different tunes. The exceptions are the Minton's/Monroe's stuff and the Minneapolis 1939 jam session with a teenager Oscar Pettiford on bass, Jerry Jerome on tenor and Frankie Hines on piano (three tunes, "Tea For Two", "Stardust" and "I Got Rhythm" - Rhythm is actually two takes which are usually spliced together, and Tea normally has the first bars of CC's chordal intro and a few bars of Jerome's tenor solo cut off).

The guys at MoJ did all the recollection of rare broadcasts and put them together on CD, in chronological order along with the studio tracks. Then came the Definitive and JSP boxes (in that order, IIRC). The MoJs corrected the speed and pitch of the music from Minton's (thus Swing to Bop goes down to Bb from B natural), but they used an annoying source with fake applause added. "Incidentally", the Definitive have exactly the same versions (corrected pitch, fake applause...).

Many moons ago did A/B the MoJ and the Definitive, not noticeable difference in SQ. Haven't tried the JSPs, but I suspect they'll be more or less the same.

On the Minton's stuff, there's one extra track in Masters of Jazz, volume 9, a "Stompin' On The Savoy" from Minton's never before released (volume drops down to zero for a few seconds). Don't know of any other issues that have that one. In the second edition of his bio, Broadbent also proposes that on a "You're a lucky guy" from Minton's, where someone shouts the names of Lester Young and Benny Goodman, Christian would be on bass (he also played bass).

My personal favourites from the live stuff are the "Tea For Two" from Minneapolis, the live "Honeysuckle Rose" with the Goodman Sextette from the Spirituals to Swing concert, the three tunes from same with the Kansas City Six, a "Sheik of Araby" from April 12, 1940 where he does a wild lick that surprises Lionel Hampton, and a very fast "Benny's Bugle" from May 1941.

F

[brownie]

Many thanks, Fer Urbina, for this update of Charlie Christian material.

Clears the accumulated confusion

[king ubu]

Yes indeed! Thank you Fer & Chuck!

I have Volume 9 of the MoJs (thanks to brownie, of course!), and now I'll look for the Columbia & JSP boxes next (I have a Columbia ordered from some amazon seller, let's see if they'll come through... I hope so, though, because except with caiman and one single other case, these sellers always had what they were listing so far...)

[Fer Urbina]

Many thanks, Fer Urbina, for this update of Charlie Christian material.

Clears the accumulated confusion

Thanks, Brownie, I was afraid I was making things more complicated.

According to Cliff Englewood's post with the tunes in the JSP set, all the tracks from the Esoteric/Fantasy CD that feature Christian are in the JSP set (as they are in the Definitive set), that is, the Fantasy CD has three other tracks without CC, with Don Byas and Dizzy Gillespie, I think. Again, none of the above (Fantasy, Definitve, JSP) have the "Stompin' at the Savoy" included in Masters of Jazz, vol. 9.

Another thing that has been corrected in the last few years (it was first suggested in the early 1990s, IIRC), is that the pianist in "Swing To Bop" (Topsy - from Minton's) would be Kenny Kersey, not Thelonious Monk.

As for the JSP and Definitive live sets, I know that in the Definitives there is nothing new compared to the Masters of Jazz. I guess that the same goes for the JSP.

For the studio tracks, the Legacy set, in spite of the silly packaging, and the small mistake of the "... New Baby" takes, is incredibly good, especially regarding SQ. Another good thing is that they have un-done all the splicing that was made for the old LPs, especially with "Breakfast Feud". However - and obviously - the Legacy set doesn't include the non-Columbia stuff (the Edmond Hall session with CC on acoustic guitar for Blue Note, the Lionel Hampton small groups and one of two Metronome All Stars sessions on RCA) plus items with no relevant guitar solos such as a session with Ida Cox (originally on Columbia, the complete session is on an old UK Affinity CD) or the one with Eddy Howard (for Columbia, you can find it here http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&a...10:djftxqugldae).

In any case, best place to check on line is Leo Valdés's site.

F (ex Christian fanatic)

[Cliff Englewood]

F (ex Christian fanatic)

Are you sure about that? Or have you just had a relapse?

[EKE BBB]

F (ex Christian fanatic)

Are you sure about that? Or have you just had a relapse?

He's just trying to avoid the Eddie Costa cold turkey for a while...

[brownie]

F (ex Christian fanatic)

Are you sure about that? Or have you just had a relapse?

He's just trying to avoid the Eddie Costa cold turkey for a while...

Hope that happens after that Eddie Costa discography is completed

[Fer Urbina]

Hi Cliff

Relapse? Moi?

F

RE Costa, I don't make more promises... I'll let you know when it's ready (only last week yet another record turned up... )

[Fer Urbina]

Another thing that has been corrected in the last few years (it was first suggested in the early 1990s, IIRC), is that the pianist in "Swing To Bop" (Topsy - from Minton's) would be Kenny Kersey, not Thelonious Monk.

I have checked with Chris Sheridan's biodiscography of Monk and apparently there's some contention regarding Monk at Minton's. Some say that he's not with Christian on the recordings (Henri Renaud) and some say he is (Brian Priestley).

Apparently the labels on the original acetates say he *is*

F

(Gosh, it's true... )

[Chuck Nessa]

If I read this all correctly, go back to my post #30.

If this is wrong, please correct me.

Just trying to supply most "bang for the buck".

[king ubu]

If I read this all correctly, go back to my post #30.

If this is wrong, please correct me.

Just trying to supply most "bang for the buck".

yup, that's what it all boils down to, indeed

[Fer Urbina]

If I read this all correctly, go back to my post #30.

If this is wrong, please correct me.

Just trying to supply most "bang for the buck".

Have compared the Definitive and JSP listings in allmusic, and they look exactly the same (titles and times), except that JSP has one more track, "South of the border", which makes it more interesting because it was never recorded in the studio by the Goodman/Christian combination.

So, yep, Chuck's correct in many fewer words

I'll shut up now

F

[king ubu]

Chuck may have indeed decided the buying question in almost as few words as possible, but it's always nice to read some more, too!

Anyway, the Definitive would be around here, but buying the JSP from, say CDuniverse (yup, via the little box on top, Chuck!) will cost me half of what the Definitive costs here, I think!

The Columbia is already on order from some Amazon seller - too bad I didn't realize in time that it went OOP, would have been cheaper back then I assume, and if there are issues with the crappy packaging, I won't be able to demand any replacements now!

[Ron S]

The Columbia is already on order from some Amazon seller - too bad I didn't realize in time that it went OOP, would have been cheaper back then I assume, and if there are issues with the crappy packaging, I won't be able to demand any replacements now!

You can still contact Sony through the information in the booklet. They may still have some replacement discs for this set. Hopefully, they stocked up on A LOT once they realized what a problem they had with the F'ed up packaging.

[Christiern]

In 1971 or 2, I produced a 2-record vinyl reissue for Columbia called "Solo Flight," and it was different from previously available reissues, because I had come across several 16" acetates if the sessions that contained all the false starts, alternates, etc. Some of you may know that we spliced several "Breakfast Feud" solos together to make his progression clear. I also came across a tape that Frank Driggs had stashed away between a wall and a console, obviously ready to be removed from the premises (a good thing that I happened upon it). It was the near-legendary Minneapolis jam session.

I know that I have mentioned this before, but I was rummaging through a closet earlier today and I came across a pertinent letter that I wish I had been able to draw from when writing the liner notes. It is from Jerry Newhouse, dated May 3, 1972, and I have entered it exactly as he typed it, typos, caps, and all:

I have recently purchased a copy of Columbia Records' 2-album set G-30779, "SOLO FLIGHT", featuring guitarist Charlie Christian. I was especially interested in the opening cuts on Side 2, "I Got Rhythm (1 & 2), "Star Dust" and "Tea For Two" ---- rather

personally

interested because I AM THE ONE WHO ORIGINALLY RECORDED THE SESSION!!!!

Let me offer a few pertinent facts for your information. Thanks very much, but I was NOT a disc-jocket --- just one of the world's greatest living authorities on Jazz who was occasionally invited to sound off on the air. The correct date was in the week of 21 September,

1939

. Benny and the band were playing a week's run at the St. Paul Orpheum Theatre. The impromptu recording session took place after hours at the Harlem Breakfast Club in Minneapolis. The personnel was as you've listed it except that the bassist was Oscar Pettiford, and there was NO drummer. The following persons can verify my claim to being the original recordist: 1. Jerry Jerome, tenor sax on the date --now at Bell Sound, NYC, 2. Bill Savory (William A. Desavouret) former Columbia engineer--sometimes collator of BG's albums--and now involved in sneaky details for the Naby Dept. in Washington, DC (Falls Church, Va.), 3. Warren Hicks, co-author of "BG on the Record" of Georgetown, Conn.

I have never commercially capitalized on my privately recorded collection, and the three persons, above, are the only ones who ever got tape copies of my original discs (and FREE, yet). Inasmuch as I don't ordinarily think of COLUMBIA RECORDS as a "pirate" outfit, I am respectfully submitting a bill for my services as a recording engineer on the aforementioned date. My request is serious, but you will find me easy to do business with--I'll probably settle for less than $200."

We asked him to submit a bill and he sent us the original tab for liquor--at 1939 prices! As I recall the check Columbia sent him was more reasonable.

Hope you find my little discovery interesting--I forgot that I had this.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Christiern

[RDK]

Great story, Chris!

As for the Columbia box and its funky packaging, I ended up buying a jewel boxed promo copy and selling the official box.

[king ubu]

The Columbia is already on order from some Amazon seller - too bad I didn't realize in time that it went OOP, would have been cheaper back then I assume, and if there are issues with the crappy packaging, I won't be able to demand any replacements now!

You can still contact Sony through the information in the booklet. They may still have some replacement discs for this set. Hopefully, they stocked up on A LOT once they realized what a problem they had with the F'ed up packaging.

Glad to report the used copy that arrived here looks fine - some minor scratches that don't look frightening at all, and no glue problem or anything looking like it!

[Christiern]

This morning I found the letter (bill) from Newhouse that I mentioned in post #45:

[Kalo]

In 1971 or 2, I produced a 2-record vinyl reissue for Columbia called "Solo Flight," and it was different from previously available reissues, because I had come across several 16" acetates if the sessions that contained all the false starts, alternates, etc. Some of you may know that we spliced several "Breakfast Feud" solos together to make his progression clear. I also came across a tape that Frank Driggs had stashed away between a wall and a console, obviously ready to be removed from the premises (a good thing that I happened upon it). It was the near-legendary Minneapolis jam session.

I know that I have mentioned this before, but I was rummaging through a closet earlier today and I came across a pertinent letter that I wish I had been able to draw from when writing the liner notes. It is from Jerry Newhouse, dated May 3, 1972, and I have entered it exactly as he typed it, typos, caps, and all:

I have recently purchased a copy of Columbia Records' 2-album set G-30779, "SOLO FLIGHT", featuring guitarist Charlie Christian. I was especially interested in the opening cuts on Side 2, "I Got Rhythm (1 & 2), "Star Dust" and "Tea For Two" ---- rather

personally

interested because I AM THE ONE WHO ORIGINALLY RECORDED THE SESSION!!!!

Let me offer a few pertinent facts for your information. Thanks very much, but I was NOT a disc-jocket --- just one of the world's greatest living authorities on Jazz who was occasionally invited to sound off on the air. The correct date was in the week of 21 September,

1939

. Benny and the band were playing a week's run at the St. Paul Orpheum Theatre. The impromptu recording session took place after hours at the Harlem Breakfast Club in Minneapolis. The personnel was as you've listed it except that the bassist was Oscar Pettiford, and there was NO drummer. The following persons can verify my claim to being the original recordist: 1. Jerry Jerome, tenor sax on the date --now at Bell Sound, NYC, 2. Bill Savory (William A. Desavouret) former Columbia engineer--sometimes collator of BG's albums--and now involved in sneaky details for the Naby Dept. in Washington, DC (Falls Church, Va.), 3. Warren Hicks, co-author of "BG on the Record" of Georgetown, Conn.

I have never commercially capitalized on my privately recorded collection, and the three persons, above, are the only ones who ever got tape copies of my original discs (and FREE, yet). Inasmuch as I don't ordinarily think of COLUMBIA RECORDS as a "pirate" outfit, I am respectfully submitting a bill for my services as a recording engineer on the aforementioned date. My request is serious, but you will find me easy to do business with--I'll probably settle for less than $200."

We asked him to submit a bill and he sent us the original tab for liquor--at 1939 prices! As I recall the check Columbia sent him was more reasonable.

Hope you find my little discovery interesting--I forgot that I had this.

This morning I found the letter (bill) from Newhouse that I mentioned in post #45:

Great stuff, Chris, especially the bill itself!

[BruceH]

A gallon of gas: 30 cents...it was 1939 all right! I also like the charge for "Case general malaise & persistent headaches." The guy had wit!