catesta Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 I think both points are accurate. I've been waiting for an Olympic basketball thread to post this comment, however: I have no sympathy for these spoiled brats who can't even be bothered to stay in the Olympic village with the other athletes. If they aren't interested in the Olympic experience, they should just stay home. Nice to see them get their comeuppance, as far as I'm concerned... Thanks for saving me the trouble of posting this. Just read this thread, and I second the seconding of Jazzmoose. Third it. On a positive note, the US women's team played like a team with heart, and DID win a gold. Quote
Jim R Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 SO....... does anybody here remember Oscar Robertson? "The Big O"?... Just kidding (although maybe a few of you are too young), but I wonder if anybody is familiar with that NY Times article mentioned above, or knows of any general reaction(s) to it by those in NBA circles (past and present). He thinks the NBA has been in a steady decline in some ways (team play, and fundamental skills, particularly with regard to offense), and I tend to agree with him. How many fewer easy shots did we get around the hoop (and how many could we actually hit) than our opponents in this tournament? How many great passes did you see that were on a par with anything by the real Dream Team (Magic, Bird, Mullin, etc)? How many unforced turnovers and dumb shots did you see in the 4th quarters of games we lost in this tournament? Can anybody make a free throw anymore? Noj, don't you think Shaq would have fouled out in the 2nd quarter? Quote
Soulstation1 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 the ballers looked like shit, they should of sent the pistons team or maybe the ncaa champ uconn. larry brown doesn't look so good now and where was duncan? no "d" or outside shot lebron was the only one playin' shaq looked good last night at the mtv vma. ss1 Quote
Noj Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 All of the problems you are describing with this Team USA (no, it isn't a Dream Team by any stretch of the imagination) are problems caused by the personnel. I blame the two shooting guards masquerading as point guards. Neither Iverson or Marbury know how to win as well as John Stockton, much less Magic. Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 Why Brown wanted AI on the team is beyond me. Quote
Jim R Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 You may have a point in terms of the specific problems I cited, but I'm also trying to get some opinions regarding a more general problem (at least as seen by some of us), which has so far been ignored- the criticism of the state of the league by one of its all-time greatest players. I think that to a degree we are still in denial (the old show-up-and-win mentality). Larry Brown obviously thought he had a decent chance to win with the players he helped to select. Even with the pre-Olympic "wake up call" loss to Italy, we get blown out by Puerto Rico, and everybody admits we didn't give enough effort. Doug Collins still seemed to be in denial (IMO) when he declared before the Argentina game that "We should still win the gold". WTF?? What is our record in international play over the last dozen games? Aren't we something like 5-7? I'll say it again- how many easy shots did we get in this tournament, as compared to our opposition? I think there's a basketball (in the traditional "team game" sense of the word) "dumbing down" that has been going on for a number of years. Players don't have the court sense they used to have. NBA games are relatively low-scoring these days, compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and it's not just a result of players improving on defense. An ever-increasing influx of great athletes without enough experience with fundamentals. As far as the international game being different, well... we've know that for a LONG time. That part is on USA basketball, as well as the players, but we've gotta deal with it. It still comes down to executing. Quote
catesta Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 I think there's a basketball (in the traditional "team game" sense of the word) "dumbing down" that has been going on for a number of years. Players don't have the court sense they used to have. NBA games are relatively low-scoring these days, compared to 10 or 20 years ago, and it's not just a result of players improving on defense. An ever-increasing influx of great athletes without enough experience with fundamentals. As far as the international game being different, well... we've know that for a LONG time. That part is on USA basketball, as well as the players, but we've gotta deal with it. It still comes down to executing. I could not agree more. I've pretty much given up on watching basketball. The exception being some college games, mainly the NCAA tournament. In my opinion it's not fun to watch anymore. Quote
Jim R Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 I have to admit, part of the reason I'm less of an NBA fan these days is because my team has always been the Warriors. It was fun right up until "Run TMC", and when Don Nelson and Chris Webber didn't hit it off, it's been downhill ever since. And that was a L-O-N-N-N-N-G time ago! Quote
The Red Menace Posted August 30, 2004 Report Posted August 30, 2004 Nothing, comrades, but nothing, will ever equal for me the glory that was the 1972 Olympic basketball final!!! If only the Cold War had had a similar ending. Quote
Noj Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 Honestly, there are selfish players in the NBA who are not playing to win. I have to say I thought I saw some of that from Kobe in these last Finals, and really through the whole playoffs. Shaq was clearly the most dominant player on the court, but Kobe was taking more shots than Shaq while shooting at a lower percentage. I think he wanted to be a hero, rather than win Phil Jackson's way. This is inexcusable. Horribly enough, my team chose to pour salt in my wounds by trading away winning for Kobe to shoot more. Shaq is so much more than a player who fouls out by half time, he is the greatest center playing. They say he's lost a lot of weight this off season, motivated by the trade. To me he's still the greatest fat and overweight. The Lakers won when they ran EVERYTHING through him, including Kobe's shots. So, why have NBA offenses allowed players to "freelance" out there as opposed to playing the way the Big O advises? Perhaps all the huge contracts have made the money mean more than winning. Or...the fans come to watch Iverson play, so let him shoot. Either way what you see is teams which do not consistently run an offense. I know when I have watched the Lakers win--or any team win, for that matter--it is because they consistently run an offense which sets up players according to their strengths and creates open shots. The movements are predictable, the shot selection simply variations within the offensive set. Quote
JSngry Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 Effective but less flashy teamwork at the expense of less flashy but more showy individual play is SO pre-late 20th century...... And not just in sports, either. Can't stress that enough - the athletes are just reflecting a society where everybody wants to be a star and doesn't seem to care what they have to do to be one. Quote
BruceH Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 Maybe they should be renamed "The Suck Team." Quote
Jazzmoose Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 As far as the international game being different, well... we've know that for a LONG time. That part is on USA basketball, as well as the players, but we've gotta deal with it. It still comes down to executing. I agree with Jim. A few executions might curb the sloppy play. I think. Quote
Cali Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 I'd like to echo the opinions of Jim R. In recent years I've been disappointed with the NBA players. Nobody can consistently hit the 17' jumper, which used to be called the "NBA shot" because if you couldn't shoot that, you couldn't play in the NBA. How can anyone justify the poor free-throw shooting percentage around the league? Instead of using excuses that the rest of the world has so greatly improved and that we didn't send our best players, U.S. basketball fans need to evaluate other factors: 1. Most of our young NBA players have not played four years of college ball, where they have the fundamentals of passing, spacing, shot selection, pick and roll, team defense, etc. instilled in them. In essence they don't have "basketball degrees". 2. Too much individualism. Everyone oohs and ahhs over how high someone can jump, or how spectacular a dunk a player can make. While players are getting better athletically they have regressed in knowledge of how to play the game. 3. Just because a dozen or so players didn't go with this team is no excuse. Are you saying that the U.S. is only a dozen players better than Puerto Rico? Let's get real. Remember there was some grousing about certain players being left off the original Dream team. Can you imagine the original Dream Team getting beaten, let alone, getting blown out by Puerto Rico? That team was on a mission. And that mission was to beat everyone by 40 points or more. And they did it. They were flat out better basketball players than the players of today. 4. Most of the other nations' NBA players in the Olympics were second tier players. With the exception of Yao Ming, I don't believe any of them were NBA All-stars. We sent a team of so-called all-stars. If you think the rest of the world has so improved, do you think that the original Dream Team of Magic, Michael, Barkley, Ewing, Bird, Malone, Stockton, Mullins, Robinson, etc. would be any less dominant at this Olympics than they were? It seems to me that we got beat by superior TEAM PLAY. One thing I don't get, though; why would Americans be happy to see Americans get beaten? I don't see where other countries were rooting for their teams to get beat. Quote
Jazzmoose Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 I have to admit, part of the reason I'm less of an NBA fan these days is because my team has always been the Warriors. It was fun right up until "Run TMC", and when Don Nelson and Chris Webber didn't hit it off, it's been downhill ever since. And that was a L-O-N-N-N-N-G time ago! Stop it, Jim; you're bringing tears to my eyes! I haven't watched the NBA in person or on TV (except for two games of this years finals) since the Webber trade. Those TMC days are a distant memory, but it still beats current reality... Quote
Noj Posted August 31, 2004 Report Posted August 31, 2004 Maybe they should be renamed "The Suck Team." Coincidentally, when I watched Team USA in the preliminary rounds scrape by an opponent that didn't qualify for the Olympics, I knew we were in trouble. A friend and I hooted and hollered over a few dunks in the first quarter but then we noticed the sloppy game and the lack of any offensive scheme. After a long silence I looked at my friend and said, "We suck." I gotta say it, we got hosed for a lot of calls by these International refs. We're not a popular country right now. Quote
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