Wes Montgomery 1955 Columbia session

[ghost of miles]

Man, I didn't know about this--in 1955 the Montgomery Brothers (Wes, Monk, and Buddy) went to New York to record an album with John Hammond that was never released. Monk was on electric bass, Buddy on piano, Alonzo "Pookie" Johnson on tenor sax (Pookie still lives in Indpls. and leads a group there), and Robert Johnson on drums. There's one track, "Love for Sale," that came out on a Columbia anthology called ALMOST FORGOTTEN. Anybody else have info on this apparently lost session? The recording date is given as June 16, 1955.

[Christiern]

Where did you see this? Are you sure that a whole album was recorded? John frequently recorded auditions, many of which were never released, nor intended for release, but usually done in Studio B (on 52nd Street) with the same care as the real thing, but only one or two selections.

As you probably know, Wes and his brothers did not record for World Pacific until December of 1957

[ghost of miles]

Chris,

It was on the back of a Columbia rarities LP called ALMOST FORGOTTEN that we have at the station. Don't have it with me, but the author of the notes may have been mistaken--the phrasing he used seemed to indicate that a number of tracks had been recorded for an album project that was then abandoned. I haven't heard the "Love for Sale" track yet, as our afternoon jazz DJ just showed me the LP a couple of hours ago--hoping to listen to it tomorrow. The author of the liner notes says that Wes takes a one-chorus solo and that his style is still a far cry from where it evolved to by '59. Until tonight I had never heard of such a session. I have a Wes bio at home & am going to peruse it tonight to see if there's any mention of this session.

[ghost of miles]

I'll also ask Pookie Johnson about it the next time that I see him. I know that Buddy is still alive, and I'm hoping to line up an interview with him in the next several months--he could probably shed some light on the backstory as well.

[ghost of miles]

Here's Yanow's review of the album in AMG:

This LP (released by Columbia in 1983) contains eight previously "lost" recordings that were released for the first time. Many all-stars appear and there are some historic performances. Drummer Dave Bailey leads a sextet in 1960 also featuring trumpeter Clark Terry, trombonist Curtis Fuller and Junior Cook on tenor. Terry interacts with the great tenor Coleman Hawkins on a 1962 version of "Ain't Misbehavin'," ltoist Pony Poindexter performs an alternate take of his "Lanyop" in 1962 with five other saxophonists including Eric Dolphy, and Wes Montgomery is heard on "Love for Sale" in 1955, four years before his discovery. Side two of this LP has trumpeter Johnny Coles leading a quartet with pianist Randy Weston, trombonist Slide Hampton at the head of an 11-piece group, the Engligh tenor Tubby Hayes in a quintet with Clark Terry and a combo matching together trombonist J.J. Johnson and cornetist Nat Adderley in 1958. The bop-oriented music is consistently rewarding, making this an album well worth searching for.

[Bill Fenohr]

I don't know if this helps,but The Modern Jazz Discography Project credits drummer Robert Johnson as the leader on the Love For Sale track. If they are accurate,it would throw some doubt on this being a Wes Montgomery project. I suspect by the time Columbia released the track, Wes was the name that had emerged from that group.

It just seems to me that with the succsess that Wes had during the Verve and A&M years that if Columbia had a albums worth of material, they would have brought it out to try to get a little piece of the commercial pie. I tend to agree with Chris that this was probably from a audition that did not work out.

[Hardbopjazz]

We talked more about here

Allmost forgotten

[ghost of miles]

I think Chris is right, based on a passage in Ingram's 1985 bio. Ingram doesn't list the session in his discography, and is apparently unaware of the then-recent (the book would have been going to press in 1984, I'm assuming) release of ALMOST FORGOTTEN. Here's the relevant passage from his book:

Slowly Wes began to gig again, firstly with the Eddie Higgins Trio, Higgins--piano, Walter Perkins--drums and Bobby Cranshaw--bass, and then with the Roger Jones Quintet, Jones--trumpet, Willie Baker--reeds, Leroy Vinegar--bass and Willis Kirk--drums.  He also did a lot of playing with the Montgomery/Johnson Quintet; Monk Montgomery--bass, Buddy Montgomery--piano and vibes, Alonzo Pookie Johnson--reeds and Sonny Johnson--drums.  This, by all accounts, very promising group, auditioned for Arthur Godfrey and made several excellent recordings under the direction of Quincy Jones.  Unfortunately these recordings cannot be traced today.  David Baker, jazz educator and long time associate of the Montgomery family remembers:

"Those recordings were particularly good, the group modelled themselves on the groups of George Shearing which were of course very popular at that time.  Wes and his brothers were perfectionists, particularly Wes.  We had free use of Chuck Bailey's Indianapolis rehearsal studio during the 50s, providing that Chuck was allowed to keep the tapes rolling while we rehearsed.  Wes was always in there rehearsing some band or another.  I remember some big band sessions he did for me and I remember him rehearsing with Mel Rhyne for his first solo record.  No one knows what happened to any of those recordings, but Wes was really playing."

Unfortunately, nothing came of either the Montgomery/Johnson quintet's audition for Arthur Godfrey or the recording session with Quincy Jones but the group did find itself regular work.

Ingram then goes on to describe a two-year residency at an Indianapolis club until the Montgomery Brothers, minus Wes, headed out to the West Coast and became the Mastersounds. So, apparently, there were two Montgomery Brothers recording sessions with Wes that preceded what I always thought of as their first studio appearance together. Pete C (if you're reading this) did Seth at Sony ever get back to you on anything that might be in the vaults? And under what label's auspices would the Quincy Jones session have fallen? Undoubtedly these sessions would primarily be of interest to Montgomery buffs--I doubt there's anything earthshattering about them--but it is an interesting chapter that I had no knowledge of until yesterday.

I'll also take another look at the liners for ALMOST FORGOTTEN, to see exactly what that writer had to say.

Edited September 14, 2004 by ghost of miles

[JSngry]

FWIW, Arthur Godfrey was on CBS, and CBS owned Columbia at the time.

Don't know what, if any, significance that might have.

[ghost of miles]

FWIW, Arthur Godfrey was on CBS, and CBS owned Columbia at the time.

Don't know what, if any, significance that might have.

Jim,

The Godfrey session is almost surely the one attributed to Hammond on the liners for the Columbia LP ALMOST FORGOTTEN--in fact, if Godfrey was associated with Columbia at the time, I just can't imagine that it isn't the same one. I'm really intrigued by David Baker's reference to a separate session done with Quncy Jones--where would that have been done? Wasn't Quincy doing a lot of work at EmArcy around 1955?

[Bill Fenohr]

Unless he was doing some independent sessions, im pretty sure Quincy's A&R work was for Mercury,which included Emarcy. So anything he might have done with Wes would be the property of Universal.

But then again Q might have been to busy with Leslie Gore.

Edited September 14, 2004 by Bill Fenohr

[JSngry]

My memory's foggy here, but wasn't there an aborted Quincy date for Columbia somewhere around this same time? Did we discuss it here, or did I read it somewhere else? It was either Quincy's date or somebody else's that he was conducting, and Columbia(?) put a lot of money into the first session, but then withdrew for no apparent reason.

Ring a bell?

[brownie]

The Quincy Jones Columbia (or rather Epic) session was briefly discussed here:

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...hl=quincy+jones

[Dan Gould]

Its really ironic that Almost Forgotten got brought up yesterday and today. The mention of the Dave Bailey track made me remember that it was almost exactly a year ago that I was down at Blue Note Records in Miami (I seem to make a pilgrimmage on my birthday lately) and I saw this album. Didn't get it then, but I did go back there today and decided to pick it up this time, for $5. Needs a cleaning but should play OK.

Not to steal GoM's thunder, but looking at the liners, we have this, which seemingly contradicts what Chris says above:

By Peter Keepnews

It's not generally known that this Indianapolis-based group ... came to New York and recorded a few sides for Columbia's John Hammond for an album that was never completed.

[Dan Gould]

Slowly Wes began to gig again, firstly with the Eddie Higgins Trio, Higgins--piano, Walter Perkins--drums and Bobby Cranshaw--bass,

I'm very curious about this. Does the author say that Wes was gigging with Eddie Higgins in Chicago? Or was it in Indianapolis?

Admittedly, Higgins did not tell me in our interview that he never left Chicago, and of course Indianapolis isn't too far, but I'm curious about the extent of his gigging with Eddie. Wish I'd known about it before I sat down with him!

[Jim R]

Dan, the last time this topic was up on the board, I pulled out my Ingram bio and read that passage. I immediately contacted Bill Gallagher (Eddie's discographer), who contacted Eddie immediately (I heard back from Bill in like 2 hours ). Eddie only recalled working with Wes once (Wes came and sat in with the trio). I don't recall a location being mentioned.

[ghost of miles]

Its really ironic that Almost Forgotten got brought up yesterday and today. The mention of the Dave Bailey track made me remember that it was almost exactly a year ago that I was down at Blue Note Records in Miami (I seem to make a pilgrimmage on my birthday lately) and I saw this album. Didn't get it then, but I did go back there today and decided to pick it up this time, for $5. Needs a cleaning but should play OK.

Not to steal GoM's thunder, but looking at the liners, we have this, which seemingly contradicts what Chris says above:

By Peter Keepnews

It's not generally known that this Indianapolis-based group ... came to New York and recorded a few sides for Columbia's John Hammond for an album that was never completed.

Dan, thanks for posting the liner note remarks. Peter Keepnews is obviously still around--I'd be curious to contact him & find out what his source was for this info. I'm still thinking that the "Hammond abandoned album" and "Godfrey audition" are probably one & the same. But does the rest of the session survive? I'd like to think that it does--where & how on earth did Columbia dig up "Love for Sale" in 1983? Again mostly an artifact for Montgomery & Indiana jazz fanatics, but I find the whole business fascinating. I don't think that Monk & Wes ever recorded together in the Hampton band--they both show up on certain Hampton sides, but I haven't found any together yet (and if I did, I highly doubt either would be featured). This Columbia session, whatever it was, certainly seems to be the first time that all three of the brothers recorded together.

[Christiern]

Its really ironic that Almost Forgotten got brought up yesterday and today.  The mention of the Dave Bailey track made me remember that it was almost exactly a year ago that I was down at Blue Note Records in Miami (I seem to make a pilgrimmage on my birthday lately) and I saw this album.  Didn't get it then, but I did go back there today and decided to pick it up this time, for $5.  Needs a cleaning but should play OK.

Not to steal GoM's thunder, but looking at the liners, we have this, which seemingly contradicts what Chris says above:

By Peter Keepnews

It's not generally known that this Indianapolis-based group ... came to New York and recorded a few sides for Columbia's John Hammond for an album that was never completed.

Dan, thanks for posting the liner note remarks. Peter Keepnews is obviously still around--I'd be curious to contact him & find out what his source was for this info. I'm still thinking that the "Hammond abandoned album" and "Godfrey audition" are probably one & the same. But does the rest of the session survive? I'd like to think that it does--where & how on earth did Columbia dig up "Love for Sale" in 1983? Again mostly an artifact for Montgomery & Indiana jazz fanatics, but I find the whole business fascinating. I don't think that Monk & Wes ever recorded together in the Hampton band--they both show up on certain Hampton sides, but I haven't found any together yet (and if I did, I highly doubt either would be featured). This Columbia session, whatever it was, certainly seems to be the first time that all three of the brothers recorded together.

Peter probably learned that from his father, Orrin, who did, after all, and spend time with Wes. As for finding the session, I found sessions (sometimes just audition selections) at Columbia on a few occasions--it happens when one goes over the files or one might simply stumble upon an unknown matrix number. As I pointed out, John (and, I presume, other producers) took people into the studio to audition them. I remember one such occasion when I dropped into the control room of Studio B. I was working on another project elsewhere in the building and John was waiting for an artist whom he was about to audition. When the phone in the control room rang, John asked me if I would get it. The West Indian security guard told me that "there is something here for Mr. Hammond."

"Oh," John said when I relayed the message, "that would be Sylvester, tell him to send him up." It was Sylvester, in his pre disco/fame days, wearing a gold lamé evening dress, clutching a matching purse, and ever so ladylike. I don't know what happened to that audition tape, but somewhere in the Columbia vaults there should be about a half hour's worth of Sylvester, singing at the keyboard, Nina Simone style.

[JSngry]

Ok, here's a wierd (but serious) question - did John Hammond know and/or work with Arthur Godfrey at any level?

[ghost of miles]

Well, I managed to talk to Pookie for a few minutes tonight before his gig at Bear's Place. He says the session was indeed done at the behest of Quincy Jones--doesn't remember if Hammond was there or not, as he didn't know Hammond. He says the group arrived in NYC around 4:30 in the afternoon, spent the next 6-7 hours at Jones' house (where Jones spent his entire time writing--not for the session, though, according to Pookie), and started recording at about 11:30 at night. He says the group had a Shearing-like sound at the time (this jibes with what David Baker says in Ingram's Wes bio) that "sounded pretty tight in the clubs... but when we put it through the mics that night, it came out kind of ragged." He thinks that, along with the group's somewhat fatigued state, accounted for the rejection of the date... doesn't remember how many sides they recorded, but says the date sounds right. I'm hoping to interview him at length in Indy sometime soon and get a few more of the details. Robert Johnson, the drummer on the date, was better known in the Indy area as "Sonny" Johnson.

Edited April 15, 2005 by ghost of miles

[wes fan]

Mr. ghost of miles

I am a Japanese jazz fan.

Was information acquired from Pookie Johnson?

[paul secor]

Don't recall seeing this thread before - amazing what's in the Organissimo back pages. Have the record. Haven't played it in so long that I'd forgotten what's on it. One to listen to soon.

[wes fan]

《Almost Forgotten - Various-Instrumentalists / Columbia FC 38509》

Alonzo Johnson (ts) Buddy Montgomery (p) Wes Montgomery (g) Monk Montgomery ( b ) Robert Johnson (d)

　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　　NYC, June 15, 1955

　　　　　　　　　　　Love for Sale

This personnel worked as "Montgomery and Johnson Quintet".

"Pete C" said.

「I just emailed Seth Rothstein at Sony Legacy about this. I'll let you all know if I hear anything.

Seth is going to check the vaults to see if an entire session exists.」

Was the track of Wes Montgomery other than "Love for Sale" located in the vault?

I would like to know very much.

[paul secor]

Just listened to the lp. The Montgomery Brothers track isn't much - to my ears the least of the music on the record. Historical importance far outweighs the musical value.

[Pete C]

I don't believe Seth ever found anything, and he's long gone from Legacy.