BruceW Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 (edited) BruceW, fwiw, I've been ripping Kobe for weeks now--since the shit hit the fan in Phil's book. I've been bitter as hell they traded Shaq to keep him, and the more I read about Kobe lately the more I doubt his innocence in that off the court incident in Colorado. In fact, I'm just a bitter Laker fan altogether, I'm sorry to direct it your way--but you are discoing down in my agony. Well Noj.... I'm not so strict that I cannot see your agony. Like I said, Mitch Kupchek and management really weren't thinking...... I agree that Kobe has more culpability than has been accepted. HOWEVER, I do think our society has not taken into account of man being just another species in the "animal kingdom." We laugh at all other animals when the male becomes insistent on mating (whether it be female heat or whatever). Man is no different, that is to say that once a certain point is reached in the ritual of man/woman connection, man is no more responsible than the woman when it comes to stopping the event. In fact, man is almost helpless. So having siad that, WHY did she go to his room in the first place, WHY did she start the ritual by kissing him and (as reported elsewhere) give him a "heady" head start in the ritual? I don't really believe any of us could have stopped at that point. Hence, not rape but an animal event that cannot be stopped. Now there is the legality of all this....... Back to basketball, the Lakers won tonight and was I surprised. There were a few losses tonight that I did not expect..... oh well, it is still early. No problem, I'm cool.... B-) I just also happen to be under fire by a whole group of Laker fans elsewhere. In fact, if the Lakers have a better record then the Pistons at the end of the regular season, I have to post some very humble pictures of myself. Nice talking to ya Make music BruceW Edited November 10, 2004 by BruceW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) news flash the daddy is shootin' 29% from the line heat are losing to the mavs on tnt ron artest is crazy "i need time off coach, to promote my new rap cd" pistons are playin' later ss1 Edited November 12, 2004 by Soulstation1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 The NBA has gone into some wild Twilight Zone dimension, where Kobe Bryant hates winning and hard-worker Ron Artest thinks he's Kool Mo Dee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 noj when you say world champs, i automatically think la lakers.... you see where b3-er says that teams are gonna play/bring their "a" games when they play the pistons, cuz they are the champs that's somthin' the lakers dealt with for 3 straight years ss1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 The Lakers have some talent I'm excited about watching, outside of Kobe who always does something ridiculous every game. Odom, Caron Butler, Tierre Brown, the skinny rookie Sasha, Jumaine Jones...they've got some atheletes. Once they get Vlade back, they'll round out to that 8th seed first round exit I talked about earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I am a steadfast Piston fan, but if Kobe ever finds out that he is only Kobe, then he will become great. He must learn that he is NOT Michael Jordan and never will be. B-) Just a nice tidbit for you Laker fans. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 14, 2004 Report Share Posted November 14, 2004 Praise the lord, the Warriors finally won a game. They play the Bobcats one more time this season so they'll finish at least 2-80. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Damn. That was fucking ridiculous. I am ashamed at the Pistons fans at the Palace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 there wasn't enough security to stop all that mess that got my blood pressure goin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 It was stupid of Ben Wallace to react like that. Artest's foul wasn't that bad, although pushing someone's neck isn't cool. It was really stupid for Artest to lay down on the scorer's table. That's bullshit. It was really really stupid for the fan to grow throw a beer in his face. It was really really really stupid for Artest to go into the stands. His ass is going to get sued. The whole thing was stupid and embarassing. The Pacers beat the Pistons fair and square. No reason for it to end like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 noj when you say world champs, i automatically think la lakers.... you see where b3-er says that teams are gonna play/bring their "a" games when they play the pistons, cuz they are the champs that's somthin' the lakers dealt with for 3 straight years ss1 Not this bunch of Lakers... B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceW Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Damn. That was fucking ridiculous. I am ashamed at the Pistons fans at the Palace. Yeah, me too. NO call for fans to act out like that. Tonight, they stunk!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Damn. That was fucking ridiculous. I am ashamed at the Pistons fans at the Palace. Yeah, it was pretty ridiculous. But at the same time, it seems like all the ESPN guys are blowing it out of proportion. We'll look back in June and it won't be anything other than a footnote. And as for Crazy Ron, it's all Don Nelson's fault! Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEK Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) That was bizarre, disgusting, nauseating, and embarrassing! I've always had a warm feeling about the fans at the Palace... The Pacers were essentially the Pacers... Ben Wallace surprised me by going so ballistic... I expect that a few players will get suspensions and fines, several knuckleheads from the crowd/mob should face legal penalties resulting from their criminal acts against the Pacers and the Palace, a few Pacers may be sued by some of the knuckleheads for their "heated responses", there will be official handwringing and reforms, and... This was a sad episode for the Pistons. I hope that they can recover soon. Watching them play has been a respite for us from all the b.s. and tension. Edited November 20, 2004 by SEK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Watching ESPN News, the commentators unanimously say that Artest was justified in going into the stands. "Self-defense" they call it. This worries me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trane_fanatic Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Watching ESPN News, the commentators unanimously say that Artest was justified in going into the stands. "Self-defense" they call it. This worries me... Random Thoughts: It was ugly on both sides. However, the incident was only between players until a beer landed on Artest. That is a form of assualt. Self-defense? Nah. For the most part, I detest and abhor spoiled pro athletes, especially one with a track record like Artest's. On his behalf, he was doing an interview and lying down on a table when he got soaked. You actually had some Pistons trying to provide security for the Indiana players. Detroit fans actually got out on the floor and started challenging some Pacers, namely Artest, O'Neal and Jackson. One thing for sure, this will change the culture of the NBA. Damn, if Ben Wallace hadn't started shoving... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trane_fanatic Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Detroit fans are really DURTEE. From some of the tapes, it looked like they were literally trying to kill or maim some of the Pacers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) My 18 year old son and I got into it over this last night. He says that Artest was well within his rights to go into the stands because of being hit by the beer. The whole "self-defense" angle again. "The fans started it with him" is what Charlie said. But I saa, yeah, the fans started it, but who escaleted it into what it became? Artest had other means of "self-defense" at his dispense, did he not? Arena security, police, hell, just getting up and moving away from the stands? Realizing the potential for escalation in any response to a provocation and weighing the implications therein is a hallmark of maturity, I think. But my boy didn't see it that way, and that worries me, even if he is just 18. He's a legal adult now, and if he ever gets into a similar situation, the courts will not likely allow the "Artest Defense". Oh well, I knew the job was dangerous when I took it... Edited November 20, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Players are NEVER justified in going into the stands. If 18,000 people decide to riot, lives will be lost. There are women, children, old people, and hell, a lot of folks who came to watch a game, but get caught up in a brawl; in other words, many innocent people get hurt when a riot breaks out. What would the players have done, if 5,000 of those fans, enraged by what was going on, decided to charge the floor and beat (even kill) the players on the floor. When a riot breaks out, BAD things happen. The self-defense angle is bullshit. First of all, the person who threw the cup is rarely the one who gets hit or injured-- remember the Texas-Oakland baseball game where the lady got hit with a chair thrown into the stands by the ballplayer. Leave enforcement to the police. You will see HUGE suspensions. I would guess Artest, who is always involved in psychodramas, will be gone for at least 20 games, probably more. That will give him plenty of time to craft his rap records. You will also see CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS of Artest, O'neal, and otheres who attacked spectators. Yes, there will also be criminal prosecutions fo some fans. And there will be lawsuits. Big time money lawsuits. The NBA cannot afford this and they know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I just turned on Sportcenter to catch this. Absolutely stunning. Should Artest have walked away after being hit with the cup? Maybe. The thing is, though, you have a near fight on the court, players are gonna be amped up-even if they are taking a break and stretching out on the scorer's table I actually do agree with the idea that the thrown cup is a form of assault. The problem with going into the stands is, if the dude's on his back, there's no way in hell he saw the dude who threw it, so he's just trying to beat up whoever he finds, not the guy who threw it. Random observations: Did you notice the guy who threw his arm around Artest and tried to calm him down when he went into the stands? Hysterical ... and pathetic, because the guy starts out as a peacemaker, he's got his arm around him, you can see he's saying "take it easy" or "calm down" or whatever, but when his nice words don't calm the savage beast, its like a lightbulb went off over the guy's head and he said, "f*ck it, why try to bring it under control, he's right here, let me pepper his face with a few punches while I've got the chance!" F-ing moron who is the first fan arrested for assault, in my opinion. And what about the fans who got on the court and challenged players? One of them approached Artest and got a straight right for his trouble. In my opinion, there's no way Artest gets accused of assault on that one. A riot is breaking out, a fan is somewhere he's not supposed to be, and he approaches, screaming at you? That's clear self-defense (perhaps a bit on the pre-emptive side, for all you Bush fans out there) BUT, the other Pacer player who came out of nowhere and clocked the same guy-he might be reasonably charged because he wasn't challenged or threatened. Kind of like that Yankee outfielder who hopped the fence to get some cheap shots in on that Red Sox groundskeeper. Bottom line, its absolutely true that nothing good ever comes from heading into the stands. But the Detroit fans demonstrated just how classless they are in the way things kept going. Just as Artest could exercise some self-control by not going after anyone, the fans can exercise some self-control by not throwing things, not going on the court, not rabbit punching people, etc., etc., etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) What I want to know (and obviously never will) is this - if Artest stays out of the stands, does this thing die down eventually and not escalate into a near-riot? That's the point I tried making with my son, that sometimes it's better in the long run to take a hit, walk away, and get over it, instead of immediately going after the instigator. Look at the reality - Artest got hit with a beer, he's fired up and gets pissed. So what? When it's all said and done, he's still making umpteen million bucks, probably getting all kinds of tail, and the fan's still sitting there gonna have to shell out another 5-6 bucks for another beer and maybe have to go home to Rosy. Who's really the winner here. ya'know, thrown beer or not? There was no actual fan/player contact until Artest went cowboy. Then, yeah, he was facing the possibility of actually being assaulted. But how'd he get in that position? He put his own ass there, right? Think of the long-term consequences, not just the short-term "solution", which might end up being anything but. Seems like a good lesson, no? But my boy, he wasn't hearing any of that, and the ESPN guys didn't seem to be either. It bothers me that nobody seems to respect the notion of having the confidence and self-esteem to just walk away from a cheap shot and let a loser be a loser instead of coming down to thier level. If a successful player such as Artest can't see that he's got more in the pot than some loser beerchunker will ever even think about having, and react accordingly, how the hell's an 18 year old kid just now getting out of the house supposed to even consider the notion that discretion is the better part of valor? Especially when there's four guys in suits nonstop on ESPN agreeing with Artest? "Parental influence" only gets you so far after a while... Like my man Brian said, I guess I just wasn't made for these times. Edited November 20, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 to me, the main thing is artest attacked the wrong person so... though he did have the right to self-defense (and though espn was making it obscure-it was a PLASTIC CUP, not a can or a glass bottle or something so it wasn't such a big deal), attacking the wrong person makes this a very bad thing. als the PR for the nba-there were three terrible shots 1.the old woman on her back on the ground 2.the little boy crying with his mom comforting him 3.oneal coming out of nowhere to clock that fan in the face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Dye Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 I guess this is what happens when you keep hockey away from Detroit fans for too long. I'm just glad no one was seriously hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 (edited) Jim, Its the difference between your 40-something self and being 18; or being in your 20s and having spent your entire adulthood getting everything you ever wanted. I'm sure your son will learn the lesson about discretion/valor, but at that age, is it really realistic to expect him to understand and agree? Sure, you'd prefer not to find out that he's got a broken jaw because of a bar fight, but sometimes for a lesson has to be learned, not lectured. Which brings me to another question/point (not aimed at Jim exclusively): How did your dad/parents deal with issues of fighting, or being challenged to fight? I'll always remember my father's approach: Avoid a fight if at all possible, but if you don't have a choice in the matter, don't mess around, don't wrestle or slap-hit. If there's an opening, punch him in the face as hard as you can. Kick the shit out of him so he knows not to mess with you again. I remember the last fight I was in, in high school. We're walking in from the athletic fields, and two bully/punks ran up behind me and kind of jumped on my shoulders, gave me a shove. I didn't go down, but I wasn't going to back down either, and went right after one of them. Didn't pussy foot around, threw one punch that missed and another that landed on the top of his head. By then the gym teacher saw what was happening and yelled, and the punks kept moving toward the building, telling me they were going to kick my ass. I guess I had a choice-I could have hung with the teacher but I wasn't going to be called a pussy, so I kept walking and when I got to the locker room, there was the guy I had hit, waiting for me. But despite the fact that I'd damaged his manhood, he was ready for a wrestling match. I was ready to fight. Got him in the ribs and the side of the face, and again the teacher broke it up. I won on points-and he didn't fuck with me again. Edited November 20, 2004 by Dan Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 20, 2004 Report Share Posted November 20, 2004 Jim, Its the difference between your 40-something self and being 18; or being in your 20s and having spent your entire adulthood getting everything you ever wanted. I'm sure your son will learn the lesson about discretion/valor, but at that age, is it really realistic to expect him to understand and agree? Sure, you'd prefer not to find out that he's got a broken jaw because of a bar fight, but sometimes for a lesson has to be learned, not lectured. Yeah, somewhere my late Dad's having one helluva a laugh at my current worries. But that's the gig. Too late to turn back now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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