Older Mosaics - preferred format?

[DrJ]

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a vinyl fanatic, in fact when I can find CDs that sound as good or better I'm happy just for the convenience factor alone. But this discussion idea was stimulated by A/B comparing the sound on vinyl versions of some older Mosaics that I was fortunate to score in an auction recently at a very fair price versus CD reissues. The vinyl are all older sets of the early BN material - MORTON/HAMILTON SWINGTETS, QUEBEC/HARDEE, BECHET, HODES, DEPARIS/JOHNSON/HALL/DICKENSON, etc.

I compared them mostly against the Japanese BLUE NOTE CLASSICS reissue series from the late 90's, many of which were quite hard to find and I was thrilled when I found them (and they were costly too, unfortunately). In a few cases there were also late 90's American reissues of stuff - e.g. Edmond Hall's PROFOUNDLY BLUE, part of that 1998 60th anniversary series - and a few 1994 dates like REMINISCING.

Well folks, basically there is no comparison. On my tube system, which has a great phono stage, the vinyl smokes the Japanese CDs - which sound ever so tinny and dead by comparison (and also seem to have pitch problems, sounding a bit "sped up"). Not terrible mind you but the music really lives with the LPs. The vinyl also smokes all the early 1990s US stuff by a mile (by far the worst of the bunch - these sound so tinny it's painful). Even my CD-R burns of this stuff, done with an inexpensive Sony burner, are greatly superior to the "legit" CD reissues from these series.

The 1998 60th Anniversary U.S. discs on the other hand are quite well done. There is probably even a bit MORE detail on these compared with vinyl - piano and guitar benefit most - but the trade off is a loss of warmth, particularly in the horns, greater high-end harshness on the same, and some loss of impact. So overall, vinyl still wins for me.

I bring this up because these are my first Mosaics on vinyl. But now I'm kind of wondering if this hasn't been the best way to go all along. My guess is that it's simply a digital conversion issue - no matter how good the process, leaving the analogue domain seems to result in a major sonic compromise, and perhaps it's accentuated for material that is already not in the greatest sound. I find it remarkable that the vinyl sets are from the mid-80's mostly and yet here we are 20 years later and the technology for CD transfers still can't match 'em!

Any comments on this? In particular, can anyone speak to the LP vs CD sound quality comparison for Mosaics of later (mid-50's and beyond) jazz? More of a coin toss?

Edited November 12, 2004 by DrJ

[brownie]

Good Doctor, what you are discovering is what older fans born and raised in vinyl land and time have claimed for ages.

Out of the 50 Mosaics that have come my way, about two third have been vinyls. Purchased them back in the time when Mosaic was an all vinyl company claiming they would stick to vinyl. Until they had to go the CD way. The non-vinyl Mosaics I have bought are those that came out in the CD format only. Even if I can understand the politics of dropping vinyl after demand for quality LPs went down, I still am angry at Cuscuna for going back on his word of not letting fans of vinyls down.

The sounds of the Mosaic vinyls are so much more alive than the CD versions. Too bad most of the Mosaic LP sets were given the kiss of death.

Maybe with the revival of the vinyl, Mosaic will return to its senses and give its customers the choice of reissue material.

[wolff]

Well, crap! I was hoping you would not like the 33 1/3 Mosaics, so we might see them FS.

Porcy, may be the one to ask about comparing the two. He has/had a bunch of CD sets and is buying up their vinyl counterparts.

Another thing about Mosaic vinyl is/was the quality of the pressings. Very consistantly quiet and flat with centered spindle holes. The 180 gram Q LP's are top of the heap, also.

I'm with Brownie. Everytime I pull out a set I lament the fact they are pretty much history.

When dreaming, I wish for a 30-50 LP set of Blue Note's greatest hits.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have most of the early stuff (pre-'50s) on 78 and the lp reissues are pale by comparison. I have multiples of the Port of Harlem and much of the rest. I even supplied BN with "source material".

Get a grip boys......and yes I really do have the 78s.

Each change of technology has pluses and minuses. Get over it.

Edited November 13, 2004 by Chuck Nessa

[DrJ]

Actually, very true Chuck! The few 78s I do have sound pretty remarkable indeed, surface noise aside. Lest it be misinterpreted, I'm not dissing Mosaic for CDs or anything, totally understand the reason for the conversion and I don't plan on replacing all my CD sets with LPs or anything. Knowing what an advocate Cuscuna has always seemed to have been for the die hard fan, and all he's done to get material out to same, I have to think he knew what he was doing (business wise) when he phased out vinyl at Mosaic. I'm sure that it could come back at some point if a business case could be made, but if it comes down to a choice between fewer sets being issued by Mosaic on vinyl versus more sets released on CD, I'll take the latter any day - since with newer Mosaic CDs the distinction compared with vinyl is much more subtle (getting to be pretty darn close). I was mainly talking about the earlier Mosaics, where there was a choice.

Anyway, Chuck, while what you say about 78s is true, with the Commodore sets weighing in at 66 LPs (big enough pain as it is), no denying the major inconvenience for a relative newbie like me in trying to track down all those 78s!

Edited November 13, 2004 by DrJ

[sidewinder]

I go for the vinyl version every time when I can get it, although the CDs do have the 'convenience factor'. Not worth getting back into the CDs vs LPs debate yet again but the Mosaic pressings are generally excellent, low noise and very consistent. A pleasure to use ! Latest case in point the Teddy Wilson, which is real nice on the Q-LP format. I personally lament the day that Mosaic eliminated the vinyl option, even with the better sound of the recent CDs.

Edited November 13, 2004 by sidewinder

[Harold_Z]

Not 100% true, but in many cases the earlier the issue, the better. I have some Commodore 78's and they sound wonderful. Also some Commodore 10" & 12" lps from the era when Commodore was still operated by Milt Gabler and many of them beat the Mosaic! I like the sound on the Wild Bill Davison "Mild and Wild" , George Brunis' "King Of the tailgate trombone" , "Billie Holiday" (also my favorite album cover), but the sound of the Muggsy Spanier "Ragtimers" was trebley and distorted.

Related: I've found the same sound issues apply to "45" issues of 50's/60's R&B, Soul, Rock, etc. In many cases they beat the hell out of the cd issues in terms of presence and mix.

[pryan]

The only Mosaic set I own that is on vinyl is the George Lewis BN sessions. This set has a wide variety of "source materials", therefore making it difficult to tell how good the Lps are versus the CDs. However, I must say that the sessions from RVG's studio have excellent sound, although admittedly I can't say how excellent b/c I don't have a high-end record-playing set up.

[Leeway]

When dreaming, I wish for a 30-50 LP set of Blue Note's greatest hits. 

Didn't Blue Note reissue a series of LPs in or around 1998-2000, something along the lines of BN's 50 Greatest Albums?

Knowing what an advocate Cuscuna has always seemed to have been for the die hard fan, and all he's done to get material out to same, I have to think he knew what he was doing (business wise) when he phased out vinyl at Mosaic.

In fact, Vinyl is not totally phased out at Mosaic; for example, there are the Miles Davis sets. From the Mosaic site:

LP Boxed Sets Eddie Condon

Miles Davis w/Coltrane

Miles Davis-Bitches Brew

Miles Davis-Blackhawk

Miles Davis-Silent Way

Stan Kenton

Amos Milburn

Teddy Wilson

As the saying goes, even Homer nods on occasion. In other words, I think Mosaic made a mistake in discontinuing their vinyl versions. As Wolff can confirm, the market for audiophile LPs has never been stronger. I do not see why Mosaic, perhaps in partnership with Classic or Analogue, could not have continued to release some of their sets in vinyl. BTW, if vinyl is commercially non-feasible, why is Mosaic still issuing Miles sets in vinyl?

One more point: the vinyl sets will never be outmoded, whereas the CD versions will be victims of advancing technology- 16 bit, 20bit, 24 bit, SACD, DVD-A, and who knows what will be next. Oh yeah, vinyl will always sound good

[DrJ]

Well I don't think the Miles sets really are the same issue - there Columbia/Legacy is issuing the CDs already so Mosaic is filling a different niche. To me this implies strongly that they can only make a reasonable business case for producing EITHER an LP or CD version of any particular box (not both), and they go with CDs in most cases because that's what MOST listeners are going to go for (despite the reasonable strength of the vinyl market). With Miles, they don't have to worry about a CD version and they do the LPs. Just a guess but it seems pretty logical.

[porcy62]

Don't do it!! I strongly reccommend: don't do it!!

When I did it I falled in a mortal spiral. Vinyl is an addiction, like drugs, and could be even more expensive!!

When I look at my cds, Mosaic or not, I think about the way I could change them with vinyl!!

I should have throw my old Thorens away, never rescued it from the box in my parents garage.

I warned you!

Now I have to leave you, I have an original RVG Impulse! on my turntable.....

Edited November 14, 2004 by porcy62