The Real McCoy

[Jazz Kat]

Allright, who thinks Tyner is absolutely at the top of his game for this session. This is one of my all-time fav's when it comes to Elvin Jones at the throne and any other avant-garde BN's from the mid 60's. I got the whole album down on the drums, Four By Five is the brightest most, fun piece to jam along on the drums. And at the end of Passion Dance, when Tyner and Henderson solo off eachother, I dig that! Great album!!!

[Alon Marcus]

Avant-Garde is a broad term but it is used in a jazz context mainly to define a specific style that was developed during the 60's and onwards, after the "free jazz" or the "new thing" revolution. In that sense "The Real McCoy" has nothing to do with the Avant Garde. It's quite a mainstream record (modal jazz if you'd like) following Coltrane's classic quartet.

All categorizations aside this is a wonderful album. I'm not sure that Joe Henderson and Tyner had recorded together much after it except for their New York reunion

[Jazz Kat]

I really didn't get the feeling it was mainstream. My take on it was, it was recorded during the avant garde's height, and it was greatly influenced by it. It's pretty wild stuff.

[Guy Berger]

I really didn't get the feeling it was mainstream. My take on it was, it was recorded during the avant garde's height, and it was greatly influenced by it. It's pretty wild stuff.

It's relative. Compared to, say, what Hank Mobley was recording at the time it's pretty adventurous. It's definitely not hard bop. But it's not really much wilder than what the Coltrane quartet was recording in the studio in the early 60s. And compared to some of the more obviously "avant-garde" playing from '67 (say, the stuff Trane, Sun Ra and Cecil were doing) or even the Miles from the same time it's conservative. At the same time you listen to the stuff that Joe, McCoy and Elvin are playing, and as you say it's obvious they're filtering a-g ideas.

Anyway, it's a great album though I like Extensions due to Wayne Shorter's presence.

Guy

Edited February 12, 2005 by Guy Berger

[Rooster_Ties]

I like to call music like this "progressive" (or in this case "progressive hard bop").

But I know the term "progressive" makes Chuck's skin crawl (maybe some others here too).

But, to try to turn this into a serious discussion (if that's possible)...

...what else can we call music like this??

(I know, "why do we hafta call it anything?? Just listen!!" is the standard response I usually see.)

But so many people want to create short-hand ways of describing things –– particularly when they're trying to seek out other, similar music (that's my only motivation here – I'm NOT trying to get into arguments about semantics, I swear.) –– that labels provide at least some value, don't they??? And especially if those labels aren't slavishly applied with maximum rigidity -- because I clearly understand that trying to hyper-categorize music, especially in terms of what IS music-type X, and what ISN'T music-type X -- is completely fraught with danger.

Still, many around here use terms like bop, bebop, and hardbop all the time. All I'm asking for is some kind of terminology that helps me refer to the music that bridges the gap between more mainstream "hardbop", and the "avant garde"/"free" movements. (Cuz THAT'S the jazz I love best, and that am constantly searching for more of.)

PS: Chuck, this post isn't supposed to come off as a rant directed at you, though I realize it could be read that way (since I called you out by name). I'm genuinely searching for a way to talk about this stuff -- a way that doesn't pigeon-hole the music (and piss people off in the process), but one that still has some value in terms of creating a common language that we can all have some vague understanding of -- even if our personal definitions are not all identical.

(You and I have butted heads before about this, and I'm trying to not let that happen again. )

Edited February 12, 2005 by Rooster_Ties

[Nate Dorward]

Re: Henderson & Tyner: Tyner's in the rhythm section on many of Henderson's own Blue Note dates, too (In'n'Out, Page One, Inner Urge). Plus Grant Green's Solid.

[sonic1]

I love McCoy Tyner. I consider him modal with hard bop sensibilities. At least on his own dates.

The Real McCoy is a great album. It is a toss up between that album and Expansions. I lean more toward Expansions. I think he pushed a little harder on this date.

I had this discussion before about the edgy hard bop that leans toward AG.

I came to the conclusion that those artists are the height of hard bop. Regarding artists like Bobby Hutcherson, Booker Little, early Steve Lacy, Tony Williams, some Grachan Moncur III, Chick Corea (of the 60s), Booker Ervin, Andrew Hill and the like.

But Tyner has the modal thing going on, which is not quite hard bop. So...put him wherever you want. Whenever you get into taxonomical designations you will always stumble upon many anomolies that don't fit nicely into groupings. It is ok...just put them wherever they fit best on your shelf! As said above, it is not so important. I mean, I think we have enough language about all this stuff to know what each other's talking about.

Edited February 12, 2005 by sonic1

[Alon Marcus]

I agree with Rooster about terminology. The name of the specific style is not so important as it is comfortable. I like to think about styles of music as infinitesimally small relation points on a huge map. The artist may travel everywhere he wishes but sometimes he is closer to one relation point than another.

Nate, I'm ashamed to admit but I'm not familiar with the Henderson records you mentioned. That's a huge educational gap especially because stuff like Inner Urge is considered classic.

What do you guys think about this box? Are you familiar with it?

The Blue Note Years

[BFrank]

That's a GREAT collection. It's been out of print for years, too. Interesting that BN would offer it on a download site.

[Alon Marcus]

That's a GREAT collection. It's been out of print for years, too. Interesting that BN would offer it on a download site.

Actually I don't think you can download it. I just put the link because it has the track listing and the AMG review. I just don't like to link to AMG because their site desighn is very clumsy.

[Jazz Kat]

I like to call music like this "progressive" (or in this case "progressive hard bop").

But I know the term "progressive" makes Chuck's skin crawl (maybe some others here too).

But, to try to turn this into a serious discussion (if that's possible)...

...what else can we call music like this??

(I know, "why do we hafta call it anything?? Just listen!!" is the standard response I usually see.)

But so many people want to create short-hand ways of describing things –– particularly when they're trying to seek out other, similar music (that's my only motivation here – I'm NOT trying to get into arguments about semantics, I swear.) –– that labels provide at least some value, don't they??? And especially if those labels aren't slavishly applied with maximum rigidity -- because I clearly understand that trying to hyper-categorize music, especially in terms of what IS music-type X, and what ISN'T music-type X -- is completely fraught with danger.

Still, many around here use terms like bop, bebop, and hardbop all the time. All I'm asking for is some kind of terminology that helps me refer to the music that bridges the gap between more mainstream "hardbop", and the "avant garde"/"free" movements. (Cuz THAT'S the jazz I love best, and that am constantly searching for more of.)

PS: Chuck, this post isn't supposed to come off as a rant directed at you, though I realize it could be read that way (since I called you out by name). I'm genuinely searching for a way to talk about this stuff -- a way that doesn't pigeon-hole the music (and piss people off in the process), but one that still has some value in terms of creating a common language that we can all have some vague understanding of -- even if our personal definitions are not all identical.

(You and I have butted heads before about this, and I'm trying to not let that happen again. )

You got it. I think when people lock jazz into different styles, bop, avant garde, free, cool, it really hurts the artist. Say an artist gets comfortable as a bop musician, then gets labeled a bop musician, he will only play strictly in a bop sense. It prevents the artist from creating something new, and it all stays the same, and even though the artist might be making some A+ stuff, he is not really doing anything new or creating something nothing that has been done before.

[tonym]

It is a great, great album. Can't speak for how it was classified at the time, as I wasn't around but as a BN novice when I bought it, I was impressed.

Can't remember who said it but they likened Tyner's playiing with Coltrane as a big wave over which Trane soared.

I see (hear) this album as Tyner and Jones creating a huge surge of water/ mass with Henderson like some sort of wild sea-bird dipping into it and coming flying out only to then duck back in.

I haven't done any drugs today if you're wondering

[MartyJazz]

Back in 1973 when I lived in Brooklyn Heights, NY, I had the fortune of running into Joe Henderson who at the time lived in the same neighborhood. (He moved to the San Francisco Bay area about a year and a half later). Anyway, he came up to my apartment one night where my girlfriend at the time cooked up a wonderful Italian dinner. During all this time, I played quite a few of his sides wherein he appeared as a leader or sideman, the only exception being Pepper Adams ENCOUNTER album in which a couple of Joe's tunes are performed. Anyway to get to the point, when I said that my favorite ballad performance of his (at that time of course) was his feature on "A Lazy Afternoon" from Pete La Roca's BASRA session, he said that he himself preferred "A Search for Peace" from THE REAL McCOY.

That obviously was a memorable evening. I still of course own the personally autographed BLACK IS THE COLOR LP that he brought to the apartment that night. Years later, it certainly beats a bottle of wine, that's for sure.

[jlhoots]

The Real McCoy - short, but very, very sweet.

[Jazzdog]

Testament tot he staying power of The Real McCoy...Go see any McCoy tyner concert and you can hear at least two tunes from it. Go to a two night run and he's play the whole album.

First time I saw him, he opened with Passion Dance. That was all I needed. One the best musical performances I have ever seen.

[Noj]

The Real McCoy was one I couldn't wrap my ears around at first, then "Contemplation" finally reeled me in. I bought it with Art Blakey's Moanin', and it was among the first 25 jazz albums I owned--but I didn't come to appreciate it until my jazz ears had grown a bit.

[Big Al]

The Real McCoy was one I couldn't wrap my ears around at first, then "Contemplation" finally reeled me in. I bought it with Art Blakey's Moanin', and it was among the first 25 jazz albums I owned--but I didn't come to appreciate it until my jazz ears had grown a bit.

Maybe that's what I need..... cuz tho I recognize it as a great classic album, I just can't get my ears around it. Maybe someday, I hope......

[Jazz Kat]

Well what are you into?

[Big Al]

Just about anything. And I normally like Joe, McCoy, & Elvin. Even on Joe's albums of the same period. And I also like Ron Carter on practically anything! So, why it is that this album has yet to strike my fancy is one of those things I may never comprehend!

[Jazz Kat]

That happend to me with, Kind Of Blue, (of all albums).

When I got it, I knew nothing about jazz, and just thought of it as boring. As I got older, I easily understood of its greatness.

[Jazz Kat]

It was All Blues that did it.