Downtown Music and its Misrepresentations

[7/4]

Worries about "Downtown" music.

(NYC)

http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic/arc...301.shtml#97719

In the end it's about prespective. I do like that list.

[Big Al]

A very good read. Having no real interest in the avant-garde personally (and knowing even less about any of it), it distresses me nonetheless that any useful artistic movement (in this case, the Uptown/Downtown movement) could be accused of coming under a LCJO-type influence!

Of course, I could be wrong; what’s your take on it, 7/4? Does he have a point (i.e. that the Uptown/Downtown scene is being overrun by poseurs who think they know everything because they’ve heard a few Zorn albums), or is he full of it (i.e. he’s afraid of his “scene” becoming too mainstream for his tastes (just a conjecture on my part, based on what I read; like I said, I could be completely misreading it))?

[7/4]

Of course, I could be wrong; what’s your take on it, 7/4? Does he have a point (i.e. that the Uptown/Downtown scene is being overrun by poseurs who think they know everything because they’ve heard a few Zorn albums), or is he full of it (i.e. he’s afraid of his “scene” becoming too mainstream for his tastes (just a conjecture on my part, based on what I read; like I said, I could be completely misreading it))?

The original Downtown scene wasn't full of improvisors, but composers.

From Kyle:

With heavy irony, minimalist Tony Conrad once participated in a late ‘80s performance of John Cage’s Songbooks by chanting, “No more Cage! Zorn is the rage!” It did seem for a few years that free improvisers from the jazz world had infiltrated and wiped out the minimalist brand of Downtown music. To his credit, Zorn created a parallel Downtown scene that took over in the late 1980s, partly through tremendous energy and organizational skills - but also partly because the free improvisers were generally ready to go onstage and perform without rehearsal, and the improvising ideology entailed a belief that anything that resulted was fine. Eventually, after 1990, free improvisation fell back into being only one component of the scene, ensconced at the Knitting Factory and Tonic, but again just one Downtown strand among many.

Ouch!

I realise that maybe the big O isn't the best place to discuss this article, but i thought it's interesting all the same.

Besides, I like that list that starts with:

Meanwhile, the Downtown scene that had started in 1960, when Yoko Ono opened her loft for La Monte Young and Richard Maxfield to give concerts at, survived and continued. The aesthetics of conceptualists like

...

It's the first time I've been mentioned in a list like that!

What's this so called avant-garde you talk about?

Edited March 9, 2005 by 7/4

[WD45]

Smells a bit like the "I am more punk than you" argument.

[WD45]

improvising ideology entailed a belief that anything that resulted was fine

This is a troubling thought that I have grappled with not just with the musical arts, but in other arts as well.

The older I get the closer I end up sticking to aesthetics, be they aural or visual.

[.:.impossible]

So what exactly is Downtown, and why is the author trying to protect its boundaries? I am not familiar with the vast majority of the composers listed.

[.:.impossible]

improvising ideology entailed a belief that anything that resulted was fine

This is a troubling thought that I have grappled with not just with the musical arts, but in other arts as well.

The older I get the closer I end up sticking to aesthetics, be they aural or visual.

Same. Although, I think I needed to accept everything for a time before I could even realize that I had an opinion as to what looked/sounded successful.

The spirit of improv, and anti-establishment, I love; however, with regard to the result, this is not always the case.

[7/4]

So what exactly is Downtown, and why is the author trying to protect its boundaries? I am not familiar with the vast majority of the composers listed.

The uptown crowd were the composers at the music schools like Julliard

and Columbia. The downtown crowd would be the composers who were

performing in lofts post-'61.

Later the free improv/free jazz crowd showd up. Should call 'em

the NYC school, class of 75-89 and be done with it.

In the blog post he pretty much says Zorn is very retro and not making much history.

This was not at all Zorn’s type of music: his models in the classical world were Kagel, Stockhausen, and Carter, he was antiminimalist, he thought John Cage was overrated. He put together a scene of performers mostly from jazz backgrounds, and created an alternative to the minimalist Downtown scene, one couched in postmodern style mixing and maximalist chaos. It wasn’t that Downtown had never had free improv before - Oliveros, Terry Riley, and Richard Teitelbaum had been experimenting with it, though with emphasis more on sound than virtuosity, more on meditation than chaos. To the horror of many veteran Downtowners, Zorn brought Downtown music back toward the modernism, chaos, and complexity from which the minimalists and conceptualists had already escaped once.

You might want to check out Ganns previous writing on the subject.

Still, this might not be the best forum to discuss this, but I thought I'd toss it in.

Edited March 10, 2005 by 7/4

[Chuck Nessa]

All of the "uptown"/"downtown", composers/improvisers stuff is about keeping music alive. Commercial outfits like DMG help the system work. All should be concerned.

OR - I'm full of shit.

[7/4]

I don't think you're full of shit Chuck.

I'm starting to find out out that a lot of folks don't understand where Kyle is coming from...

[7/4]

It should be kept alive.

I hear it as one big ball of wax, but the scene is so competitive in NYC. It gets pretty ugly.

[Chuck Nessa]

It should be kept alive.

I hear it as one big ball of wax, but the scene is so competitive in NYC. It gets pretty ugly.

Maybe you should move to Chicago. B-)

Or Whitehall.

[Uncle Skid]

Or Whitehall. 

[7/4]

I'm planning on being obscure, but getting a lot of press and then moving to Az. for the weather. Then 20 somethings can release CDs of my vast catalog of unreleased works that they have never heard and have been such a profound influence on them and their lives.

[AllenLowe]

it's an interesting piece - I've been out of the NYC for so long I don't know what's what anymore...I did work and record at the Knitting Factory twice; it was an important downtown spot, though, as Don Byron said once, people finally realized it was just "a dirty little room." The point about downtown vs uptown is really about the lessening of commercial pressures downtown, but, I suppose, as NYC real estate has escalated, the distinctions are more stylistic. In the 1980s that downtown scene was extremely important in rejuvenating jazz, I think (despite what Wynton and Ken Burns tell us about that supposedly sterile period) - Zorn and more, Brandon Ross, Byron, Caine, Hooker, etc etc etc, these were times of crossover between new music and improvised music, and they had quite a lasting impact on jazz.

Edited March 10, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

the viola IS my life,

clementine

athens, ga

Y'atta talk to Morton 'bout that. Oops, too late.

[7/4]

the viola IS my life,

clementine

athens, ga

Y'atta talk to Morton 'bout that. Oops, too late.

I almost bought a viola at a guitar show in New Jersey a fewyears ago. I coulda ha my own John Cale jet engine.

good evaluation Clem.

[Jazzmoose]

Besides, I like that list that starts with:

Meanwhile, the Downtown scene that had started in 1960, when Yoko Ono opened her loft for La Monte Young and Richard Maxfield to give concerts at, survived and continued. The aesthetics of conceptualists like

...

It's the first time I've been mentioned in a list like that!

Wow...I had no idea you were Yoko Ono!

[Jazzmoose]

(Insert your smilie of choice in the above post.)

[7/4]

Besides, I like that list that starts with:

Meanwhile, the Downtown scene that had started in 1960, when Yoko Ono opened her loft for La Monte Young and Richard Maxfield to give concerts at, survived and continued. The aesthetics of conceptualists like

...

It's the first time I've been mentioned in a list like that!

Wow...I had no idea you were Yoko Ono!

That's why I have 24/7+ to post on this list.

[Big Al]

Well, if I had even a clue as to what I was talking about.....

Seriously, I suppose I used the term "avant-garde" to label pretty much any jazz I don't get..... which at last tally was somewhere around 83% of it....

I mean, I think I showed my hand when I didn't realize that, in this particular case, there's a difference between composers and improvisers. The article and this discussion helps. So, yeah, I'm glad you posted this article here. It just shows to go that even the purest art forms are not immune to the shameless opportunists of the world. For that reason alone, I hope that the scene written about in the article remains undistilled.

I, however, will continue to be full of shit!