Joss Stone......

[Kari S]

Re: "neo" soul sistas recap (slightly Off T)

Joss Stone - too much over trying and "soulful" manners. Example: the single "You Had Me". It seems that she's trying to squeeze every last bit of her out. Take a deep breath! Somebody said it, and I agree - if she wouldn't be white and basically still a teen, the hype wouldn't be so huge.

Alicia Keys - melismas, manners, an average singer IMO. Has a couple of nice songs, though, but that's it.

Beyoncé Knowles - to be able to sing like her and look as beautiful as she does, is so wrong. Too bad most of her songs are so lame.

Personally, I gotta go with Erykah Badu and Lauryn Hill... "Mama's Gun" and "The Miseducation of L.H."

[JSngry]

The Old School Soul singers sang what they knew. The New Breed seems to be singing (often quite well) what they heard on records. Different times, different world, and a big difference from where I sit.

[Sundog]

Been digging The Soul Sessions for over a year now. I pretty much take that first record at face value. She obviously loves old school R&B and Soul, and can perform it pretty convincingly. She may not be breaking any new ground (at least not yet). However it's refreshing to see a young musician who digs this music. She may be turning on a whole new generation to this genre. That ain't a bad thing!

[wolff]

Been digging The Soul Sessions for over a year now. I pretty much take that first record at face value. She obviously loves old school R&B and Soul, and can perform it pretty convincingly. She may not be breaking any new ground (at least not yet). However it's refreshing to see a young musician who digs this music. She may be turning on a whole new generation to this genre. That ain't a bad thing!

Totally agree!!

One of the things, as I mentioned before, is the production of Soul Sessions. I'd love to hear some of the others get the same treatment or try the same thing. Drums(real ones), bass, guitar and keyboards. Drum machines, overlapping vocals(what a crime), etc. just suck the life from otherwise great singers. I'm afraid her 2nd album suffered this fate.

Anyone notice the tasty guitar solos on Soul Sessions? What a unique idea.

[RainyDay]

Joss Stone is marginally better than Al Jolson. She sounds like a pretender and she makes me cringe. I watched her sing several songs the other night and marvelled at how truly awful she is. Her tortured, marble-mouthed, pronunciations are painful to listen to. If she's had any training, she's thrown it all out the window to sound like someone who is doing a really bad imitation of a soul singer. The comment about her getting over if she was black and heavier is an unbelievably ignorant, ignorant comment on so many levels. If she was black and heavier, she'd be getting no attention at all since no one is interested in a chubby, black, marginally talented singer. Jill Scott is chubby with loads of talent and is light years from becoming a household name.

Alicia Keys is a good songwriter and a good singer. What melismas? What songs are you referring to? I don't hear much of that in her music although melismas in R&B are part of the package. I don't understand this comment. Isn't this the gospel influence in R&B? Isn't this what distinguishes this music from, say, Vicky Carr? Whatever.

I've avoided this thread because I'm not sure how to discuss R&B with people who think Joss Stone is a terrific R&B artist and Alicia Keys is a no talent pop singer. That is just weird. Very weird. I've been listening to R&B as long as I've listened to jazz, better than 50 years, and the discussion here is just weird as hell. I guess soon you all will be telling us that Patty Paige invented R&B. My goodness, I feel like I've stepped through the looking glass.

[wolff]

I do not think anyone said Joss Stone was great. I said I like her and the production(Soul Sessions) was close to perfect, for my tastes. Others said they liked the old-school approach.

I am just happy to listen to an album that is not over-produced, and if she makes another one like it, I'll buy it. I will not buy another by Angie Stone, Erykah Badu, etc.. , unless they do the same.

I listened to Jill Scott the other day and could not get passed the drum machine and muli-tracked vocals. What a shame, IMO. My loss, as I will not be purchasing her music.

Edited April 27, 2005 by wolff

[RainyDay]

When I am listening to a vocalist, I 'm listening to the voice, the story they tell, and how well they tell it. You didn't like Jill Scott because of the drum machine. That is so weak. So much for your "enlightened" hefty, black singer argument.

[Dan Gould]

Opinions should be judged on their individual merits. Its certainly plausible that if Stone were black (not touching the part about weight), she wouldn't have to deal with issues of "authenticity". And FWIW, I tend to agree with Jim S. on the difference between older and newer soul singers.

And as for drum machines, Rainy, its a perfectly legitimate gripe, and it applies far too often nowadays. As a presumed supporter of real, live musicians, you'd think you wouldn't dismiss it quite so readily.

[RainyDay]

And as for drum machines, Rainy, its a perfectly legitimate gripe, and it applies far too often nowadays. As a presumed supporter of real, live musicians, you'd think you wouldn't dismiss it quite so readily.

The thing that really frosts me about your comment is that rap music gets a pass on all these things. No live musicians, just repititve electronic sound. And yet the masses are drooling all over the stuff. When elements of hip hop get incorporated into R&B or, heaven forbid jazz, then it becomes a bad thing. Y'all want to have it both ways.

[Dan Gould]

And as for drum machines, Rainy, its a perfectly legitimate gripe, and it applies far too often nowadays.  As a presumed supporter of real, live musicians, you'd think you wouldn't dismiss it quite so readily.

The thing that really frosts me about your comment is that rap music gets a pass on all these things. No live musicians, just repititve electronic sound. And yet the masses are drooling all over the stuff. When elements of hip hop get incorporated into R&B or, heaven forbid jazz, then it becomes a bad thing. Y'all want to have it both ways.

ROFLMAO.

Sorry Rainy, but I don't want it both ways, and I don't drool over anything the masses drool over. And rap gets no pass from me under any circumstances.

[JSngry]

Who is "Y'all"?

[RainyDay]

Who is "Y'all"?

All y'all defenders of rap music.

[wolff]

When I am listening to a vocalist, I 'm listening to the voice, the story they tell, and how well they tell it. You didn't like Jill Scott because of the drum machine. That is so weak. So much for your "enlightened" hefty, black singer argument.

These comments lead me right back to many of my previous posts. In so many modern productions of R&B I cannot get the message/emotion/soul of a vocalist due to the vocals being buried in the mix. Buried by drum machines and other studio tricks. I usually hear a very processed voice that drives me nuts. It really frosts me. That being said, Soul Sessions sounds wonderful and authentic production wise. The production reminds of 60's recordings by Sinatra, King Cole and others where the vocal are upfront and center, naked, so to speak. I think it should win an award for that alone!!

I do not like rap, but I do like Beck who uses many studio tricks. The studio tricks of Jill Scott do not work for me.

These are my preferances. I guess ours are different

My comment about 'if she was black and heavy' is stupid, I agree. It was a bit of a joke and I prefaced it as such. Just something to think about.

[Noj]

There is an artistry to rap music that those with minimal exposure and no interest in the genre are unable to recognize. They always have the same complaints, all of which can be attributed to a lack of working knowledge and a failure to actually listen to the music.

But don't let me stop the latest rap-bashing festival. Let's hear about how the drums are so repetitive and the music's unoriginal and every other word is an expletive. Yawn.

I wouldn't rate Alicia Keys higher than Joss Stone. They both have the same problem to my ears--a lack of quality songwriting. Neither have achieved what Jill Scott did on her latest album, imo.

[Soul Stream]

On the sheer talent scale I'd rate Alicia Keys at about a million times the talent level of a Joss Stone. Saw Stone with Rod Stewart singing "Hot Legs" on TV and she couldn't contain her inane warblings when any space happened in the song. Joss Stone looks good and is sexy and can sing. But hasn't got the soul of someone like Alicia Keys.

All this said, I don't listen to Alicia Keys, don't have any of their albums. This is just from seeing both these young girls performing on TV. To see Alicia Keys sit at a piano by herself and perform a Donny Hathaway tune solo on the 9/11 special days after the event. That blew me away. She was stripped down and just played and sung the hell out of that. No bs'ing embellishments either. STRAIGHT. I don't think JS is capable of something like that... performance-wise.

Depth. That's the dividing-line here.

But, everyone's got their own opinion and I respect them all. Mine is...in 20 years we'll still be hearing from Keys long after Stone is as forgotten as Juice Newton is today.

[Noj]

I can hear the talent Alicia Keys has, Soul Stream. But if she has soul, it's yet to make it into an original song I've heard. I could easily see her covering Donny Hathaway well, and I can see the talent disparity between she and Joss.

Maybe there's better Keys I haven't heard. I heard her first album and wasn't feeling it. Any videos I've seen have been pleasing to the eye but not the ears.

[Soul Stream]

I can hear the talent Alicia Keys has, Soul Stream. But if she has soul, it's yet to make it into an original song I've heard. I could easily see her covering Donny Hathaway well, and I can see the talent disparity between she and Joss.

Maybe there's better Keys I haven't heard. I heard her first album and wasn't feeling it. Any videos I've seen have been pleasing to the eye but not the ears.

Noj, I'm with you in the songwriting department. But to tell you the truth, I haven't heard a good song come out of R&B since the 70's. So, I'm not faulting her in that department. Recipe for a modern R&B slow jam: Kick drum and beats with sparce musical framework, add vocalizations with no point=hit song. That has replaced good old chord changes and melody as far as I can tell. I know I'm sounding old, but.... R&B nowadays is such a producer driven phenom that I don't think artists are allowed to write their own songs are they?

...but, please keep in mind I don't know anything about this stuff. I don't really listen to it. It all sounds the same to me.

[wolff]

Listening to Angie Stone: Stone Love......During many songs there are 4-6 vocal tracks playing at the same time. It's like an SOP rather than an occasional thing. Then she starts talking and her voice is way out in the mix with nothing else going on. This stuff cracks me up.

[Noj]

Yeah, I found Angie Stone's first album awful so that doesn't suprise me.

[chris]

I'd agree that Keys has far more potential than Stone, but I know who I'd rather listen to especially now that Keys has chosen the pop-diva-pimp-myself-out-as-a-ho route to selling records, hanging on the arm of the latest talentless Usher/Mario/etc whiner of the moment with enough makeup to make Tammy Faye Bakker take a step back.

At least Joss Stone puts it out there and does her level best to sing a music that she clearly loves-- and more power to her for it!

[RainyDay]

I'd agree that Keys has far more potential than Stone, but I know who I'd rather listen to especially now that Keys has chosen the pop-diva-pimp-myself-out-as-a-ho route to selling records, hanging on the arm of the latest talentless Usher/Mario/etc whiner of the moment with enough makeup to make Tammy Faye Bakker take a step back.

At least Joss Stone puts it out there and does her level best to sing a music that she clearly loves-- and more power to her for it!

Not too big of a double standard here, is there? Alicia is a pimped out ho? What the hell is that? Have you seen any of the videos by so-called rappers, speaking of pimps, and hos? What an insult to a woman who has been studying music since she was a small child. And some street thug who can make, what Keith Richards calls third grade rhymes, is considered a major, profound talent? Get out of here.

I think her song writing is just fine. I don't know where this Alicia Keys doesn't sing with soul nonsense comes from. No, she doesn't shake her ass at the camera and wear close to nothing on her videos, but is still a ho? It is 1,000 times harder for women to be successful in the entertainment industry than men and reading some of the bullshit I've read here is evidence of that. Here's a woman who writes, sings, has class (maybe that is what really bothers you?) and she is a ho? Man am I sick of the way women get degraded whether they carry themselves with dignity or not. You guys all drool over some crotch grabbing, violence embracing, forty ounce drinking, foul mouthed thug, but Alicia Keys is a ho. I guess if she was hanging off of Fitty Cent she'd have better street cred. Fuck that two times.

Edited April 28, 2005 by RainyDay

[chris]

Have you seen any of the videos by so-called rappers, speaking of pimps, and hos?

[...]

You guys all droll over some crotch grabbing, violence embracing, forty ounce drinking, foul mouthed thug, but Alicia Keys is a ho. I guess if she was hanging off of Fitty Cent she'd have better street cred. Fuck that two times.

That's my POINT. I HAVE heard this music. Do you think Keys hasn't? You really need to learn to read.

She's choosing to align herself and hang off the arms of a bunch of "artists" whose sole mission in life seems to be degrading women in their music. Doing so is degrading for her and it's a choice she is consciously making from who she hangs out with to the style of clothing (or lack thereof). Look at how she has chosen to start presenting herself. What she is choosing aligns herself as one of the "ho"s that these same people talk about in their music.

I don't like the way these artists portray women, you don't either. Yet Keys chooses to hang on their arms anyway. Because she's in love? Or because it sells some records?

[Noj]

Hey, I didn't knock Alicia like that Rainy. I think she's talented, stunningly beautiful, has plenty of positive attributes...I just don't dig her tunes. I also listen to more enlightened rappers who have positive messages about women.

[chris]

And I'm not saying "Alicia Keys is a ho"-- I'm saying that if .50 Cent degrades women (as he does) and then she shows up with him arm-in-arm (and she has, multiple times), then she is putting herself in a position to be seen that way.

It's no different from what I tell my daughter: if she chooses to listen to misogynistic rap that degrades women and treats them as objects, then she is setting herself up to be perceived that way and-- whether she thinks so or not-- tacitly condoning some really reprehensible crap.

Keys is in a position that has even MORE responsibility, but she choose to let the prospect of sales override sensibility-- otherwise she'd say "hell no!" when asked to take the stage with Uncle Fitty or anyone else of that ilk (and there is a lot of hip-hop I do like).

[Kari S]

Was it Angie Stone who had a version (sort of) of Hubbard's "Red Clay"?