DrJ Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 (edited) Well you're entitled to your opinions jazzhound, but they are just that - opinions, not absolute truth. I'm puzzled in that you're arguing both sides of the argument - first saying "what sounds musical is distortion" but then claiming that as distortion is removed things sound more real/musical. So which is your real opinion? (seems like the latter but...). My only point was that I don't think it's SIMPLY or exclusively a matter of distortion that makes tubes sound so nice, but I do acknowledge it may be one factor - and my point was, so the f**k what? It's a really uninteresting argument to me, as I'm not into "specs," but just to address your point further: Many people would disagree with you about things sounding more musical the more distortion is removed. For example, Steve Hoffman, whose ears I honestly trust quite a bit more than yours (or mine), and a huge proponent of quality tubes - not just for listening but for cutting records and discs as well. All I can tell you is his DCC LPs and CDs sound better than any series of recordings I've ever encountered. The magic of tubes. The whole deal with tubes (or for me in particular, the single-ended triode tube) is that whatever distortion is being introduced and whatever else makes them sound so nice makes for a particularly magical, musical sound. While it's particularly amazing in the midrange (typical vocals for example), I don't think the sound suffers at any part of the spectrum assuming you have a good system. And I think the Audio Note Meishu amp I have qualifies as a true gem. I'm not saying that a real good solid state system won't sound highly pleasing to the ear. But personally I haven't heard one yet that can match a well-balanced, quality SET tube system for that magic in the mid to mid-high range and in the mid-bass range (string bass just sounds so much more natural and real on tubes!) which for me is where most of the musical action is. I can live without ultra-clean repro of the ultra-highs and lows. Most solid state systems sound artificial in those realm to my ears even when they arguably reproduce the sounds more "clearly" (bloated bass and harsh glaring highs that call attention to themselves rather than the overall musical performance - who needs 'em?) - which ought to get you thinking about whether these are "critical" to the musical listening experience in the first place. I don't disagree with the idea that the front end is critically, critically important - and in fact I've got both of mine up to where I'm extremely happy with them now (Nottingham Spacedeck table/tone arm with Sumiko Blackbird cart for analog; Audio Note 2.1 signature DAC/Audio Note CD zero transport). No question I heard an amazing difference going from a Technics SL1200mk2 table/Ortofon cart to the Nottingham/Sumiko pairing. But even given that I still prefer the sound of CDs and records played on a SET tube system. Last of all you do have to do some heavy listening work up front to get a nice speaker/amp pairing with SET tubes in particular. Zingali Overture .2s speakers were my choice. With my amp, heavenly. If you listen to SET tube systems where the speakers can't handle the low output or are otherwise inferior, well, you're definitely not giving a real listening to tubes. Edited May 14, 2005 by DrJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Right on Dr. J, I'm right where you are. jazzhound, granted some fifties and sixties and seventies tube products are going to have flabby bass and a really creamy sound that may not be accurate. But modern tube designs don't sound that way at all unless they are designed to. Dr. J's system will have the accuracy of the solid state world PLUS that magic dimensionality that a great tube system has. My Decware amps (single-ended EL34 tube amps) have the tightest bass I've ever heard and overall the cleanest less glary treble, but also have that magic that tubes bring. I'm personally no fan of distortion--I've done lots of amateur recording with entry level solid state gear and had to struggle to get clear and clean sound so I know what distortion is about at the recording end at least. And I don't hear distortion in my system (tube output modified Sony SACD player into single ended tube amplifiers into "Radial" speakers, soon to also include a very simple tube preamp). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert h. Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 The notion that tubes sound "warm", or that this warmth is a "distortion", is fundamentally wrong and belies a deep lack of understanding. The entire point of a GOOD tube amp is the very high linearity of good output tubes combined with the LOWER distortion of tubes. A really good tube amp will sound fast, clean, detailed, but will not have the switching distortion of SS nor the grain of transistors, in other words, it will have high linearity and low distortion - which a good SS amp should have too - but also, it will be free of the SS artifacts such as grain, high end glare, and other aspects of SS which are fatiguing, and unmusical. Also, a good, simple tube amp will have vastly better timing - a better sense of integrated sound - and superior depth. There are some tube amps that sound warm by (defective) design - the designer deliberately allowed harmonic distortions to remain, which IMO is a stupid thing, it masks all the advantages of tubes and turns the tube amp into a big filter. Good tube amps also will sound slightly warm, but that's because without the distortions of SS they represent the tone of the recording better. You'll never convince a die-hard SS man, though. I don't bother, the loss is theirs, many never understand why they reach for the 'off' button because they're tired of listening far before I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 What they said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 What they said! ← when I hear it I will believe it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 I'm still laughing at your comment that pros do not use tubes. ← you won't find them in recording studios powering playback systems. For many good reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzhound Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 (edited) I get the impression that many listeners thinks tubes are great because they love the nice relaxed sound they deliver in some systems. But the reality is acoustic instruments whether string or brass contain alot of noise in their sonic profile. The pretty sound tube systems provide exists only in tubeland. I recently recorded a concert band and as usual was struck by how harsh much of the sound coming off the stage was in comparison to recorded sound most people experience every day at home. In fact recording engineers spend alot of energy removing midrange via eq and by using ribbon mics for example to smooth out the sound. Tube gear sounds good because it sounds good, not because it is accurate. The opposite is the case with solid state. It can sound harsh because the real source music is often quite harsh and aggressive sounding. Edited May 20, 2005 by jazzhound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 Jazzhound, you're never going to convince ME. I use tapes of material I recorded in my garage apartment in the eighties of myself and several different groups of musicians playing to evaluate my system. I know the players, the room, the instrument, I was there while it was recorded. These are played back most realistically and accurately on the tube equipment I have, not the solid state equipment I have and have had. So talk on, I hear ya but don't believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 when I hear it I will believe it. Three words: ear wax removal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 you won't find them in recording studios powering playback systems. Another generality/blanket statement that is false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted May 20, 2005 Report Share Posted May 20, 2005 The notion that tubes sound "warm", or that this warmth is a "distortion", is fundamentally wrong and belies a deep lack of understanding. Good tube amps also will sound slightly warm, but that's because without the distortions of SS they represent the tone of the recording better. ← Got it. Those who don't use the qualifier "slightly" have their heads up their ass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 (edited) At last I had my amp back from Linn. The problem was the solid state power amp, the tech sheet says "blew up", not a specialistic term, but it depicts the situation. Anyway my tube pre amp is innocent! BTW Linn will refund me the cost of loudspeaker repair. Great customer service Edited July 1, 2005 by porcy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I'm so glad of the great customer service, that your amp is back healthy as it can be, and that the falsely accused preamp is now. . .glowing happily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 That's good to hear ! Which model of Linn power amp is the one that blew up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rostasi Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Oh. I thought this thread was about contraception... never mind... --- Now playing: Schlammpeitziger - Prä-Digitaler Volksstuhlhänger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 That's good to hear ! Which model of Linn power amp is the one that blew up? ← It's a Klimax mono amp. Linn has a great customer service, for instance if you replace and old Linn cartridge they give you a discount of 30% on a new one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Don't know that particular Linn power amp but the Linn amps I have heard have had impressively tight musical reproduction. I find the same thing with Naim with regard to customer service here in the UK. When I give them a call they are able to check up the full service history on all my kit - particularly useful for the Hi-Cap obtained second-hand. The fact that they are 20 miles down the road in Salisbury also helps ! Both Linn and Naim seem to attract very loyal customer bases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I always found Linn and Naim two reliable brands, in term of tech support and customer care. Solid companies, a customer can count on them in the stream of time. I tend to avoid the 'last trend' audio smugglers who disappears after a couple of years of great reviews on High End journals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Rod posts his one liner about contraception, and then porcy tells us about a Klimax amp? *Ahem* Sorry; I'm feeling particularly goofy today, I guess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Rod posts his one liner about contraception, and then porcy tells us about a Klimax amp? *Ahem* Sorry; I'm feeling particularly goofy today, I guess... ← Well, some Bird's and Trane's solos are very close to orgasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Jazzmoose Posted Today, 12:15 PM Rod posts his one liner about contraception, and then porcy tells us about a Klimax amp? *Ahem* Sorry; I'm feeling particularly goofy today, I guess... It must be Bechet's piercing (giggle giggle) soprano on that SUMMERTIME CD that has turned your brain to mush, Mark! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 Man, Linn sure treated you right!!! What's the warranty on your little Klimaxs? Lifetime? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Bresnahan Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 (edited) Jazzhound is such a poor advocate for solid state amplification... Oh hounded one, even though I agree with you that solid state sounds better than tubes, many people do not agree with us. Why not just let them like what they like and leave it at that? BTW, the initial premise of this thread, that a pre-amp blew a speaker, sounds plausible to me. It doesn't matter whether that pre-amp is solid state or tubed. If it blows and sends a large spike to the amp, that amp could send it to the speaker. It'd likely blow the amp in the process too, as is the case here. BTW II, Linn amps are usually pretty reliable. I would definitely get your pre-amp checked out before hooking your system back up. You might find that the reason your amp blew is because of the pre-amp. Later, Kevin Edited July 2, 2005 by Kevin Bresnahan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 (edited) BTW II, Linn amps are usually pretty reliable. I would definitely get your pre-amp checked out before hooking your system back up. You might find that the reason your amp blew is because of the pre-amp. Later, Kevin ← I already hooked my system. At Linn factory in Scotland they checked it out, I think they would have advise me that all this mess was caused by a bad signal into the amp. From the tech sheet they included I read they replaced the power supply too, so I think this was the problem. I think that a bad signal from pre amp should have blow the power amp devices up and save the power supply and woofer, considering that my loudspeakers have some sort of protection between crossover and woofer. The protections blew up like the woofer, so I think that the low level signal from pre amp could't do that. Anyway I strongly hope you're wrong on this issue! Edited July 2, 2005 by porcy62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcy62 Posted July 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 Man, Linn sure treated you right!!! What's the warranty on your little Klimaxs? Lifetime? ← Actually it's a five years global warranty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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