Why I Stay Pissed

[JSngry]

Uh...KNTU is not really a "public" station. It's a college station, and gets its funding from the school, which in turn comes from the state. The fundraisers they do are to cover expendiatures over and above what's budgeted for them by the school. The station survived just fine w/o any fundraising until about 4-5 years ago, when state budgeting started getting pretty funky. I've no doubt that if all they wanted to do was to play music, they could still get by just fine on what they. But they also offer live sports coverage (of UNT and local high schools), live Denton City Council coverage, and lots of other types of in-house of political and community service programming. For the broadcasting students, it's gotta be a helluva sweet deal, some real-life type experience in things other than playing music that most of them don't know shit about one way or the other? I mean, where else would you hear Count Basie called Count Bassey?

So why should allowing Ornette on the air every so often be such a big fucking deal that you gotta take the records away from the station because the students actually want to play them? Why is it so important to brainwash them into thinking that what the Lab Bands play, and music that the Lab Bands approve of, is the finest that jazz has to offer and that everything else is to be approached with suspicion? Who's so threatened by Ornette that they need to hide his sides? Whose dick is it that's begging to be sucked by all this, anyway? Somebody who figures that as long as you got a faceful of their's that you won't be able to see anybody else's?

Sounds to me like this Mark cat has just a bit too much of a stick up his ass, and that he's somebody's bitch, if only his own...

I know, Alexander/Kilpatrick this diatribe ain't, but DAMN!!!!

[Big Wheel]

Sounds to me like this Mark cat has just a bit too much of a stick up his ass, and that he's somebody's bitch, if only his own...

←

Welcome to the weird world of pompous, anal retentive grown-ups at college radio stations...

Part of me feels that there's actually something a little unhealthy about this particular species - sorta like the high school teacher whose major reason for teaching is that he never really grew out of the high school mentality. It's more than a little creepy, IMO.

Edited June 30, 2005 by Big Wheel

[Guest]

Uh...KNTU is not really a "public" station. It's a college station, and gets its funding from the school, which in turn comes from the state. The fundraisers they do are to cover expendiatures over and above what's budgeted for them by the school. The station survived just fine w/o any fundraising until about 4-5 years ago, when state budgeting started getting pretty funky. I've no doubt that if all they wanted to do was to play music, they could still get by just fine on what they. But they also offer live sports coverage (of UNT and local high schools), live Denton City Council coverage, and lots of other types of in-house of political and community service programming. For the broadcasting students, it's gotta be a helluva sweet deal, some real-life type experience in things other than playing music that most of them don't know shit about one way or the other? I mean, where else would you hear Count Basie called Count Bassey?

So why should allowing Ornette on the air every so often be such a big fucking deal that you gotta take the records away from the station because the students actually want to play them? Why is it so important to brainwash them into thinking that what the Lab Bands play, and music that the Lab Bands approve of, is the finest that jazz has to offer and that everything else is to be approached with suspicion? Who's so threatened by Ornette that they need to hide his sides? Whose dick is it that's begging to be sucked by all this, anyway? Somebody who figures that as long as you got a faceful of their's that you won't be able to see anybody else's?

Sounds to me like this Mark cat has just a bit too much of a stick up his ass, and that he's somebody's bitch, if only his own...

I know, Alexander/Kilpatrick this diatribe ain't, but DAMN!!!!

←

It is a pretty funky time for stations that get funding from the public, the CPB, a university, or a mixture of all three. I am not trying to defend their programming decisions either. If they can play some of the new releases, they can play some of Ornette's more accessible stuff with a relative amount of ease. Problem is, if they have students pronouncing Basie as Bassey, he has problems that he needs to address first. Got to walk before you can run, especially when you have DJs that are new to the music and broadcasting in general.

What is KNON's jazz programming, like? They have a few jazz shows, right?

[JSngry]

KNON has jazz from midnight to 4 am, Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays. That's a totally different animal, in that it is a "community access" station. The DJs are all volunteers, and they not only do their own programming, they provide it as well. The Monday/Tuesday guy, James Stapleton, is a musician himself, and programs a variety of quality jazz of the post-bop varieties. Nothing too out, but what he lacks in breadth, he makes up for in depth. He also does an hour of real Brazillian music each night as well. Very enjoyable listening.

The Wednesday night cat's name escapes me at this moment, but he's more into the 70s and beyond funk-jazz. But again, his taste in his idiom of choice is above-average, and I enjoy his programming just fine.

The best jazz radio in the Metroplex is on Sunday afternnon from 3-6 on Soul 73, KKDA-AM, 730 on your radio dial, hosted by Roger Boykin. Great musician and great radio.

[JSngry]

Problem is, if they have students pronouncing Basie as Bassey, he has problems that he needs to address first.  Got to walk before you can run, especially when you have DJs that are new to the music and broadcasting in general.

Well, hey - if you can teach somebody to say "Basie" and still be ignorant to the music, you can just as easily teach them to say "Ornette", right?

Seriously, there's always been an air of insularity, smugness, and self-congratulatoriness to everything connected to the jazz program at NT. The stories I could tell... But what's hard to swallow about this is that you hear these kids who for the most part obviously don't know a damn thing about the music that they're playing (the one or two who do stick out like a sore thumb, and their programming is noticably "off-list" for as long as they last...), and you can hear the indoctrination in the way they gush over the latest release by the 2:00 Lab Band, like they're in the presence of True Greatness, a Greatness which is beyond their mere mortal understanding.

Well, the same mind that's convinced them that the 2:00 Lab Band is the hippest shit on today's menu is also the same mind that's telling them that Ornette is too strange to be trusted, that it's music that is only for the fringes, all that bullshit that we all know just doesn't hold up in the Real World of Jazz (hell, even hardbop Chris Heaney was on record as saying that he dug Atlantic-era Ornette!).

So again I ask - why is motivating all this? Simple school spirit and/or pride? Nah, it's too warped to be something as simple (and laudable) as that. Again, I feel that it's the kind of "building a monument to yourself" mentality that has long pervaded a portion of the upper echelons of the Jazz Ed department at NT. They have historically gone out of their way to put out a very specific product and to freeze out any and everything that runs counter to it, sometimes going to outright scandalous ends to do so (a notable example is how all the tapes of all the Lab Bands were made available to members of the 1:00 for listening & studying. Except the ones with Billy Harper. Those were somehow "not available". Or the time that a member of the 1:00 was threatened with "blacklisting" if he allowed the release of an album he had recorded with a Dallas-based avant-garde group. Oh yeah, there's some stories to be told...)

Yeah the students are there to learn broadcasting, and I'm sure they're getting a great education in same. But is they're going to have to play jazz, and if they're not going to know anything about it going in, and probably just a little more going out, why not give them a real exposure to the music, not one that is so socially and culturally skewed as to not at all fancifully be described as deceitful and totally false?

I know the answer (and so do many UNT alums...), and it makes me (and them) darker than I care to be, so that's all about that.

[kh1958]

I stopped listening to that station because the student DJs were generally so bad, not being able to pronounce the names of the artists and obviously not knowing much about the music. The signal is not very strong in Dallas either. What with a car CD player and an ipod, I don't care that much, as I rarely listen to music on the radio any more.

It would be great, of course, to have an intelligent programer who helped me discover new music, but I haven't heard anything like that since Dennis Gonzalez had a show on KERA where he could play what he wanted (this was quite awhile ago), so I've pretty much given up on that accord.

I'll try to remember to check out Roger Boykin, though, as I used to listen to him and had lost touch.

[JSngry]

I stopped listening to that station because the student DJs were generally so bad, not being able to pronounce the names of the artists and obviously not knowing much about the music.

Well, if the station's sole objective was to get and keep listeners, that kind of shit would've been fixed a looooong time ago, right? Make all DJs take a Jazz For Dummies class or something before being allowed on air, right?

But that's not the objective....

[chris olivarez]

Sounds to me like this Mark cat has just a bit too much of a stick up his ass, and that he's somebody's bitch, if only his own...

←

Welcome to the weird world of pompous, anal retentive grown-ups at college radio stations...

Part of me feels that there's actually something a little unhealthy about this particular species - sorta like the high school teacher whose major reason for teaching is that he never really grew out of the high school mentality. It's more than a little creepy, IMO.

←

Trust me. Pompous,anal retentive "grownups?" in radio are not limited to college stations but it is unfortunate that they are there as well.

[chris olivarez]

JSngry that Mark dude reminds me of some people that I've had the misfortune to work with over the years. I love your description.

[Jazzmoose]

Sounds like this school has more problems in the music area than just the radio station. Then again, maybe all schools are like that. There's something distinctly odd about people who teach and/or work at colleges. In high school, the students were the annoying, cliquish little hitlers; in college it's the teachers and administrators...

[Jazzmoose]

Jeez, that was bitter; don't mind me...

[Guest]

Problem is, if they have students pronouncing Basie as Bassey, he has problems that he needs to address first.  Got to walk before you can run, especially when you have DJs that are new to the music and broadcasting in general.

Well, hey - if you can teach somebody to say "Basie" and still be ignorant to the music, you can just as easily teach them to say "Ornette", right?

Seriously, there's always been an air of insularity, smugness, and self-congratulatoriness to everything connected to the jazz program at NT. The stories I could tell... But what's hard to swallow about this is that you hear these kids who for the most part obviously don't know a damn thing about the music that they're playing (the one or two who do stick out like a sore thumb, and their programming is noticably "off-list" for as long as they last...), and you can hear the indoctrination in the way they gush over the latest release by the 2:00 Lab Band, like they're in the presence of True Greatness, a Greatness which is beyond their mere mortal understanding.

Well, the same mind that's convinced them that the 2:00 Lab Band is the hippest shit on today's menu is also the same mind that's telling them that Ornette is too strange to be trusted, that it's music that is only for the fringes, all that bullshit that we all know just doesn't hold up in the Real World of Jazz (hell, even hardbop Chris Heaney was on record as saying that he dug Atlantic-era Ornette!).

So again I ask - why is motivating all this? Simple school spirit and/or pride? Nah, it's too warped to be something as simple (and laudable) as that. Again, I feel that it's the kind of "building a monument to yourself" mentality that has long pervaded a portion of the upper echelons of the Jazz Ed department at NT. They have historically gone out of their way to put out a very specific product and to freeze out any and everything that runs counter to it, sometimes going to outright scandalous ends to do so (a notable example is how all the tapes of all the Lab Bands were made available to members of the 1:00 for listening & studying. Except the ones with Billy Harper. Those were somehow "not available". Or the time that a member of the 1:00 was threatened with "blacklisting" if he allowed the release of an album he had recorded with a Dallas-based avant-garde group. Oh yeah, there's some stories to be told...)

Yeah the students are there to learn broadcasting, and I'm sure they're getting a great education in same. But is they're going to have to play jazz, and if they're not going to know anything about it going in, and probably just a little more going out, why not give them a real exposure to the music, not one that is so socially and culturally skewed as to not at all fancifully be described as deceitful and totally false?

I know the answer (and so do many UNT alums...), and it makes me (and them) darker than I care to be, so that's all about that.

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ah hell, i am going home. i'm hungry. i think i have some orchette.

[rostasi]

ah hell, i am going home.  i'm hungry.  i think i have some orchette.

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Do you have Orchette's ornestral album "Skies of America"?

---

Now playing: Eugene McDaniels - The Lord Is Back

[Big Al]

Jeez, that was bitter; don't mind me...

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Are you kidding? It was right on the... er, mark!

[JSngry]

KNON has jazz from midnight to 4 am, Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays.

Add Thursdays to that lineup. the same guy who does Wednesdays also does Thursdays. His show is called "The Jazz Connection", and I think it's a different guy than who used to do it. I caught a little bit last night, and there' was a little less funk/smooth than the old guy used to play.

[marcello]

Well, it turns out that "good" means quite a different thing than I had imagined. I was told, "The goal of a radio station is to gain listeners" - not to present a balanced representation of the artform, not to make the serious fans happy - just to gain listeners. Quantity, not quality. Because that's what you take to the funding folks to get your money. Numbers.

Mike

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It is unfortunate Mike, but that is exactly right. The real challange, for both Program Directors and Jazz Artists is how to balance the need for audience numbers ( for the PDs) and how to make real music and get it played.

Some PDs that I know do a pretty good job of both pandering to the masses by doing let's say, a certain number of vocals per hour ( the conventional wisdom is that most anybody can relate to a vocal performance) and giving the DJs a free rein or a combination of anything in their archive plus a certian number of recuring plays of the same new releases. Some are lames who have no idea of the history, or the richness, in this music. I mean, I had one tell me recently that Neena Freelon was the best jazz singer in history.

The battle for the listeners, and hence the more conservative the programing, happens during the day and especialy the drive time hours. After that, the most progressive PDs, let anything happen.

This is a real struggle in the larger markets. Nothing is going to be perfect, but the best way to get artists played that you like is to be vocal about it by asking them to be played. Tell them when they playing in your area and get out and spend some money in support. You have to be prepared to be out-numbered by the masses, though.

I wouldn't worry so much about the music of the past being played; they will always be there. I worry about the artists here and now that stuggle to make great music that is almost impossible to be heard.

Edited July 2, 2005 by marcello

[Michael Fitzgerald]

WBGO has a strict "clock" approach. I don't recall the specifics, but it's basically this: vocal tune, followed by new release, followed by classic tune - but remember classic can't go back before 1945. I think it repeats every thirty minutes. And this does NOT vary on the time of day. They specifically must present a unified homogenized image whether 4 PM or 4 AM.

In the end, I don't listen anymore. And if the local jazz station is losing *me* as a listener (and as a paying member) - I mean really, WTF?!!!?!!

Mike

[marcello]

I agree with you.

WBGO is well known in the industry as having one of the more regimented playlist formats of all.

What may happen, while gaining corporate and goverment funding, is losing the support and dollars of it's most dedicated jazz audience.

A sad point of fact that there is only four 24 hour Jazz Stations in the U.S. and WEGO is one of them. None of them, by the way, are associated with a university.

[Christiern]

It was the uninformed DJs that made me write WBGO off as a skippable spot on the dial.

[Dr. Rat]

Sometimes I get the feeling that the radio industry has a disdain for the "jazz lovers" and/or "purists."  They will pander a great deal to an audience that "likes" jazz, but that doesn't have a love for, or a loyalty to, the music itself.  I think that they ignore their base at great peril--unless their goal is simply to eliminate jazz radio. 

I've been away for a while, but I read this thread with interest, so I thought I might throw my two-cents in as someone who works in the field.

Just to let it be known: I am not really responding directly to any one person here, just using the comments of others as a taking off point to write a bit on a topic I've thought about a lot over the years.

There definitely IS a disdain for purists in the radio field (you sometimes see them called SPERM: Self-Proclaimed Exerperts in Radio and Music). The disdain is at least partially deserved: purists call a lot to tell me things I already know or which are perfectly obvious to everyone. They make completely impossible demands (for instance, that everyone on air know how to pronounce everyone's name), they care about things that really don't matter very much, and they think the radio station ought to be their personal jukeboxes. Such people, however, are rare. Most listeners are very considerate, they understand that their preferences and opinions, no matter how well informed, represent a relatively small thing when compared to the preferences and opinions of tens of thousands of listeners.

Hanging up on listeners who want to discuss music and programming is just way out of bounds in my book. I would not pay someone to behave in such a manner, and I'm not sure I'd let them volunteer, even. Personally, I love having people like Jim out there listening, and I appreciate the criticism offered. Usually when infomed folks know the situation WE (one full time employee, a relatively green group of volunteer programmers, etc. etc.) are in, infomred critics become informed helpers. Our current Jazz Director started as someone who called in often to correct my mispronunciations.

And that is the glory of community radio.

At my station, we thankfully still have complete creative control over what we play.  I do not interpret that power as a license to jam "difficult" jazz down a listener's ear canals at 4 in the afternoon, and I do play artists sometimes that I might not be so wild about myself, but that I believe a certain part of our audience--the "jazz likers"--enjoys.  (Diana Krall, for one example, though I did like her last two CDs.)  But I've certainly played Ornette's Atlantic material in the afternoon... you just go for creating an enjoying, interesting weave of music that hopefully both entertains and intrigues, that doesn't yank people out of their comfort zone, but that also suggests something outside of that comfort zone.  Don't bludgeon 'em--seduce 'em, I say.  And Ornette's Atlantic period is one of the most accessible introductions to "avant-garde" jazz (45 years old at this point!) that I can think of.

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There is still a long way to go in developing jazz radio in a more viable and positive direction. Right now there seems to me to be a split between the pre-1980 attitude (who cares if anyone listens, this is great) and the David Giovannoni attitude (there's no difference between "service" and ratings). My own notion is that public radio service is a function of both the quality of the programming and quantity of people that programming reaches. If no one listens, the greatest programming in the world does no service. If everyone listens to Rush Limbaugh, you have made the world a worse, not a better, place.

The point I would try to make with the folks who seem to care ONLY for quality is that radio is a mass medium: it quite simply isn't right to use the public airwaves to broadcast programming that hardly anyone will benefit from. Especially when most of the people who DO listen have lots of disposable income to go out and buy the music in question themselves. So there is a contradiction when radio is disdianed for programming in a way that draws more listeners. That is what radio is for: to reach relatively big audiences.

So when you design a jazz program, the first question is "How do I do I present jazz in a way that is both culturally enriching for the community and financially viable for the station?" You don't ask "What are my favorites?" or "What do I think other people ought to be compelled to listen to?" For me art is about compromise (between inspiration and the limits of form, between creatior and audience, between competing motives). The art of radio is a creative compromise between the desire to expand the audience (for both financial and service reasons) and the desire to express oneself aesthetically. Those who can't bring themselves to accept this sort of compromise should look for anothe rmedium to patronize.

As far as uninformed DJs go: I've found that people who are interested and knowledgible about jazz, desirous of being on the radio, and reasonably qualified to do it are getting pretty thin on the ground these days.

From my point of view if they are playing Count Basie and trying to learn, all is well. What harm is really done if they say Bassie anyhow? Someone equally naive may come in for an embarassing moment, but that's life.

--eric

[gslade]

For me art is about compromise (between inspiration and the limits of form, between creatior and audience, between competing motives). The art of radio is a creative compromise between the desire to expand the audience (for both financial and service reasons) and the desire to express oneself aesthetically. Those who can't bring themselves to accept this sort of compromise should look for anothe rmedium to patronize.

--eric

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art is about compromise, those are dangerous words Dr.

[Dr. Rat]

For me art is about compromise (between inspiration and the limits of form, between creatior and audience, between competing motives). The art of radio is a creative compromise between the desire to expand the audience (for both financial and service reasons) and the desire to express oneself aesthetically. Those who can't bring themselves to accept this sort of compromise should look for anothe rmedium to patronize.

--eric

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art is about compromise, those are dangerous words Dr.

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Don't you think it is though?

--eric

[GregN]

Well, I think the DJs at KNTU are communications majors.  That ought to tell you something.

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Zinga! lmao

That was cold, Soul.

But I liked it!

[GregN]

For me art is about compromise (between inspiration and the limits of form, between creatior and audience, between competing motives). The art of radio is a creative compromise between the desire to expand the audience (for both financial and service reasons) and the desire to express oneself aesthetically. Those who can't bring themselves to accept this sort of compromise should look for anothe rmedium to patronize.

--eric

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art is about compromise, those are dangerous words Dr.

←

Don't you think it is though?

--eric

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I would argue for 'cooperation'. Though, I guess some compromise is also implicit in any shared art form. Like language, sometimes to get our ideas across we have to rephrase or alter things. This would be, in essence, a compromise of our initial intention.

On a related note, I've always loved how some artists, just prior to a show, argue that they only do art for "art's sake" with no compromise, or more succinctly and in their own terms, "only for myself". If it is only for themselves, why the showing?

When I am approached on a gig, and someone requests a song I don't know, I usually say, "that is a great tune, but I am sorry we don't do that one". Unless,

it is Metallica. Then, Jimmy A screams.... Hell yeah!!! and then proceeds to count it off.

[gslade]

For me art is about compromise (between inspiration and the limits of form, between creatior and audience, between competing motives). The art of radio is a creative compromise between the desire to expand the audience (for both financial and service reasons) and the desire to express oneself aesthetically. Those who can't bring themselves to accept this sort of compromise should look for anothe rmedium to patronize.

--eric

←

art is about compromise, those are dangerous words Dr.

←

Don't you think it is though?

--eric

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The inspiration and limits of form compromise could be argued that all art has limits (I would hope otherwise). The Commercialization of Art is a very large and complex debate. I would agree that the artist should consider the audience, beyond that any generalization gets tricky. Radio not being the originator of the art, just a presenter might then just becomes a used car salesman. On the other hand, can radio be an educational tool? Thomas Kinkade personifies the dangers. If you were arguing that radio is just for the uniformed masses and people with some knowledge should look elsewhere (One reason I spend so much money on music), I would disagree. The airwaves belong to all (or they should). Some jazz on the radio is better than none, maybe. I think financial considerations are an oppressive force in the world of art. Nevertheless, unfortunately we live in a time that the almighty dollar rules.

Somewhere I have some great articles written about the subject however they are in storage. I hope that later this year I can retrieve them and can pm you with some recommend reading.

Personally, I very rarely listen to jazz on radio, except for Ghost's show online and McPartland every once in awhile on a Sunday. I like to choose what I am in the mood for and much of the stuff I hear on radio just pisses me off.

Edited July 6, 2005 by gslade