BFT #30 Discussion

[Jim R]

That is one of the weirdest Kenny Burrell solos I’ve ever heard. There’s one lick where he goes way down low on a bass string...

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yes, that part!

I have gathered it is him, but... weird

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Almost Tiny Grimesish

[MartyJazz]

Funny about track #8. Obviously the preceding verbal clues were enough to pin down the guy who's moonlighting on alto for this date. A check of my queue in Yourmusic.com where one can listen to a 30 second sample of each track on any CD confirms the session. All this to say that it's nice to know I'll be copping this CD for $5.99 next month as I've moved it to the top of the queue.

[JSngry]

Okay, #8 is starting to bug me now.  Two members recognized it, but didn't provide links... which is cool, just forces me to think harder and makes the whole thing more fun.  But now it's bugging me, goddammit. 

Jim, could you confirm whether it's Vinnegar on bass?  Just this one clue might help me to piece things together.  Actually I'm not necessarily close, but I think (hope) that I can narrow things down via the piano player (I guessed Russ Freeman, which I think may be wrong, but there are a handful of players in whom I hear similar characteristics).  Which leads me to a tangential topic that I've never gotten around to.  Might as well bring it up here...

I hear in a number of piano players who were recording in the 50's a similar style, which I've never quite put my finger on, nor traced the origins of.  A few players that sound very similar to me at times (and there may be a few others I'm overlooking):  Hampton Hawes, Eddie Costa, Russ Freeman, Claude Williamson.  It's a manner of swinging, a particularly percussive approach to soloing, not really flashy but more earthy/bluesy/funky.  But it's the percussive element that stands out (listen to the lick at 2:34-2:37).  On the beat for the most part, and the occasional "bombs" from the left hand.  Horace Silver had a hand (pun probably intended) in inspiring this style, but in terms of this particular track and the elements of this player's style that prompted me to bring this up, I associate the sound more with the other players (and I would tend to put less emphasis on Hawes in this respect also, as he a broader technique at his disposal). 

So, before I get any further out in left field, does any of this make any sense to anybody?  What do you all think of this pianist (more ideas)?  If anyone else has zeroed in on this particular piano style, any thoughts on tracing it's origin?  As I said, I'm probably overlooking some other players, and it may have been far more widespread than I'm currently realizing.  Two people already know who the pianist here is, so I hope I don't end up falling off the limb I'm on.  

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Okay, even I can translate "Zut".    Thanks, John.  So... add one Joe Castro to my list of pianists with a certain similarity of style (to my ears, at least).  I don't own much JC, just a couple of Teddy Edwards discs, so I'm not terribly familiar with him, relatively speaking.  At any rate, my piano question remains... maybe this really was a widespread sound (but I'd still like to get a handle on it, if it's possible to associate a group of players in this way).

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Note that all the pianists you mention, save Costa, are Los Angelian, at least in terms of "career center". I'd guess that the sources would be equal parts Bud Powell, Horace Silver (who began recording w/Getz in 1950, I believe), Hampton Hawes, a native of the region who was probably independently going, to one degree or another, where Silver was going, and the reinforcement of popular/peer acceptance.

I do think that it was a, as you call it, "widespread sound" - mainly a "West Coast" one, and one defined to no small degree by how the piano was recorded on so many West Coast dates from the 50s - stark but warm, w/little or no reverb added to the sound. That dryness accentuated the percussive aspects of the sound.

I'll not claim that this is an "answer" to your query, but I too have long noticed that to which you refer, and this has been my take on it.

Edited October 16, 2005 by JSngry

[couw]

I'd say Costa, hitting plenty middle and lower keys, takes quite some from the Tristano bag as well, which I don't necessarily hear that strong in any of the others.

[brownie]

This was music to be enjoyed. And I did dig this very much.

I have given up trying to identify any further tracks.

This is what I managed to get but I enjoyed the rest of it.

1- When I first heard this music (a long time ago!) I thought the players were just a bit too cool for my taste. Over the years I changed my impressions and by now I find the playing of these musicians red hot.

The link is for a complete reissue. I have the music on a Japanese vinyl reissue of the Imperial original (could not find a link)

Opening track from this.

Smog

2- Well this wasn't Al and Zoot but close cousins. Perk was the one who led me to the right album. Love these discrete players! They never overwhelm and always manage to make their point.

Track 4

Perk

3- Strangely it was the brief appearance by the guitar player that made me see the light. Another very discrete player but who always makes his presence felt. The tenor confrontation is a joy.

Opening title from Challenge

4 -Who's in? Piccolo and trombone..., an odd match. This has to be Hank Jones on piano. Could not identify this particular recording. Gave up searching through Mr. Jones' discography. Just overwhelming.

Pretty sure that's Jimmy Cleveland on trombone. Liked that and very curious about it.

5- The album was my introduction to the pianist (he is identified with an e added to his name in the liner notes personnel. This was superb music that still kicks today. A shame that the leader has not been asked to record more albums under his name.

I think the sound for this session is not up to the standards set by the company's regular engineer!

Never mind, I loved this album even if the ensembles could have gained from more rehearsals.

A monster session by musicians that nearly all have disappeared.

Coming

6- Excellent group. Is that Clifford Jordan? The trombone player seems to have been recorded a bit offmike.

7 - could not make up my mind at first whether I liked it or not. But after trying to iodentify this (and failing) I find myself getting into the spirit of this solitude!

8 - The alto player is an old favorite of mine, so was the bass player. It did not take long to guess who those players were. An excellent and underappreciated recent discovery.

sunmoon

9 - Inspired playing here. Tried to guess who these players are. No luck!

10- More inspired playing. This has to be Chico's father but don't ask me where this comes from.

11- Catchy tune from a session that promised more than it actually delivered. Not as remarkable as the other ducal session with tenor from the same label.

Opening track from this:

http://www.vervemusicgroup.com/product.asp...rc=vmg&pid=9559

12- Sweets and Jaws! But no 'Jawbreakers' (I checked that album). Another track I loved!

13- The master himself a bit past his prime. He knew how to pick the players in his band even if he managed to make life miserable for many of them. When I first heard this (back in vinyl days) I did not pay enough attention to the pianist. I do now. Another Master!

Track 6 (you know...)

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PA...&cid=64666&fp=F

14 - Jazz simplicity at its best. Teddy, Red, Remo, Shavers. The gang's all here. Another one to enjoy to the Moon!

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=3881801

15 - Easy. Have all these Savoy recordings on French LPs. A shame these sides have (could?) not been reissued by the company. So much outstanding piano. The fact that so few of his albums are available has thrown this giant into obscurity.

Serenade

16 - Clark Terry and the Trumpet Kings? Probably one of those Pablo albums that were issued so fast, it was hard to keep up with each nea releases. Those times have gone now!

Many thanks Chris for reuniting these various tracks. Really enjoyed listening to them all!

Edited to fix some links that did not work

Edited October 16, 2005 by brownie

[Bright Moments]

as usual i enjoyed the BFT greatly, but was completely stumped.

thanks for your hard work in putting it together!!

[MartyJazz]

(snip)

2- Well this wasn't Al and Zoot but close cousins. Perk was the one who led me to the right album. Love these discrete players! They never overwhelm and always manage to make their point.

Track 4

Perk

(snip)

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I have to laugh. I guessed Al and Zoot but then said that "if you (i.e., Catesta) tell me it's Richie Kamuca and some other west coast tenor I wouldn't be surprised". And sure enough while your link only id'd the other west coast tenor (BP), a further search reveals that RK indeed fills out the front line.

[JSngry]

If I ever own a soda fountain, I think I'll create a irresistably delectable beverage and call it The Bill Perkins Float.

[catesta]

[Noj]

Blindfold Test #30

Compiled by Catesta

Thanks a lot Catesta for the fine selection of tunes, I particularly enjoy tracks 5 & 6. I've decided to make this my last BFT (at least for a while), seeing as I have greedily participated in the first 30. I ought to leave room for others to participate in this cool tradition. As always, if anyone would like a copy of any of the BFTs past, just send me a PM.

1. Reminds me of the Tad Dameron/Fats Navarro BN set. Happiness-inducing.

2. This is a standard whose name escapes me. Gerry Mulligan & Paul Desmond come to mind. Great stuff.

3. Anyone else get up and dance around the room to this one?

4. Grant Green with Yusef Lateef?

5. Lee Morgan?

6. Stanley Turrentine?

7. Joe Sample?

8. Jimmy Giuffre?

9. Monk?

10. My least favorite on the disc, but not bad. Sonny Rollins?

11. Lou Donaldson?

12. Wynton Kelly?

13. Benny Goodman? I briefly mistook this for the same tune as #2, and had to play them a few times against each other.

14. Lionel Hampton?

15. Mary Lou Williams?

16. Again, this sounds Dameronian to me. Or Mingus maybe?

Thanks again Catesta!

[brownie]

4.  Hey, what happened to the saxes?    Actually, I’m glad for the change o’ pace.  This is nice- a not-so-ordinary approach to the blues.  Nice arrangement, and I’m digging the solos too.  Shit... this is messing with my brain.  I don’t think I own this, but I think I’m going to need it.  My first thought was a Herbie Mann group.  That is one of the weirdest Kenny Burrell solos I’ve ever heard. There’s one lick where he goes way down low on a bass string... just doesn’t sound like something KB would have played.  But it’s KB.  DAMN, this can’t be a Herbie Mann thing.  At first I thought Curtis on bone, but upon further examination, I recognize some Jimmy Cleveland (or Rosolino) type technique in there.  I think this is Cleveland... and now I know what the **** this is!  It’s gotta be Jerome Richardson’s session.  I don’t have time to check or do a link right now, but it’s from one of his New Jazz albums.

Now why did I overlook Jerome Richardson? Jim R. got it right.

Track 2 fromthis one

Zut alors!!!

And that's Jerome on flute all the way. No piccolo intro mentioned.

At least I got the trombone and piano players right!

[EKE BBB]

Now why did I overlook Jerome Richardson? Jim R. got it right.

Track 2 fromthis one

Zut alors!!!

And that's Jerome on flute all the way. No piccolo intro mentioned.

At least I got the trombone and piano players right!

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I´m afraid your link doesn´t work, brownie.

[EKE BBB]

Curious to know who´s the pianist on track 7. Any more guesses?

[brownie]

Now why did I overlook Jerome Richardson? Jim R. got it right.

Track 2 fromthis one

Zut alors!!!

And that's Jerome on flute all the way. No piccolo intro mentioned.

At least I got the trombone and piano players right!

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I´m afraid your link doesn´t work, brownie.

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How about this one?

http://product.ebay.com/Midnight-Oil_UPC_0...7QQsoprZ3071022

I had several problems with links on my original post earlier today

[EKE BBB]

Thanks!

[JSngry]

And that's Jerome on flute all the way. No piccolo intro mentioned.

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Mentioned or not, that's almost certainly a piccolo!

[brownie]

And that's Jerome on flute all the way. No piccolo intro mentioned.

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Mentioned or not, that's almost certainly a piccolo!

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I, too, heard a piccolo. Still do...

Ira Gitler wrote the liner notes. Jerome is mentioned as playing flute and tenor sax on the album. Also alto flute on the next tune 'Delerious Trimmings'...

[DukeCity]

And that's Jerome on flute all the way. No piccolo intro mentioned.

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Mentioned or not, that's almost certainly a piccolo!

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I, too, heard a piccolo. Still do...

Ira Gitler wrote the liner notes. Jerome is mentioned as playing flute and tenor sax on the album. Also alto flute on the next tune 'Delerious Trimmings'...

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I, too, hear it as piccolo, but I got curious. I checked to see if the upper notes of that line are technically possible on the flute. The top note is a G7, also referred to a 4th octave G, (that's high!) and in my search I found an interesting quote from Robert Dick, a well known contemporary flutist who is regarded as an expert on extended techniques:

"I spent a lot of time in the 1970s searching for the fourth octave G, which I never found under normal circumstances. At the time, I believed that the upper limit of the flute was simply a function of the strength of the flutist¹s desire (mine was unlimited) and body. I was also inspired by Cat Anderson, the famous high trumpeter in Duke Ellington¹s band. I did a gig with Cat, one week of the Ice Capades in New Haven, and was moved by his musicality, beautiful personality and cosmic chops. I thought, "if Cat can do it, Robert will too." So in the mid-70s I developed the embouchure strength, flexibility and sensitivity program that remains the backbone of my technique today. And although I found fantastic arrays of interesting and beautiful sounds, and some ugly ones too, I never got the fourth octave G.

While working at I.R.C.A.M. (roughly translated as the Institute of Research and Coordination of Acoustics and Music)in Paris in 1978, I spent time with the acoustician Arthur Benade. From him I learned about a truly distressing truth: the "high frequency cutoff" which is a reality for all musical instruments. For the flute, the fourth octave F# is the highest normal note, resonances above this are extremely weak. I read that one or two folks can occasionaly get a hint of the G and this makes sense in that the cutoff is not absolute but is the tail end of a weakening train of resonance. Thats why the high F natural is so difficult to play in tune with any kind of good tone quality. I tried the suggested fingering in another posting and got a transitional hint of G natural. The sound goes away so quickly because the lips cannot maintain enough pressure to compress the airstream at such a high speed. We can "muscleup" for a blast, but lose control quickly. Benade metioned that, if someday a flutist could muster the necessary power to jump from the fourth octave F# to the B natural above it, there would be frequencies again. I think that this is in the zone of totally diminished returns. The lip power necessary to keep the airstream focussed at the necessary velocity is quite possibly beyond what the human facial musculature is capable of. (And please lay off the steroids; this is art, not the NFL or East German swimming.)"

So I'm convinced that it can't be flute. Must be piccolo, credited or not.

[Jim R]

Okay, #8 is starting to bug me now.  Two members recognized it, but didn't provide links... which is cool, just forces me to think harder and makes the whole thing more fun.  But now it's bugging me, goddammit. 

Jim, could you confirm whether it's Vinnegar on bass?  Just this one clue might help me to piece things together.  Actually I'm not necessarily close, but I think (hope) that I can narrow things down via the piano player (I guessed Russ Freeman, which I think may be wrong, but there are a handful of players in whom I hear similar characteristics).  Which leads me to a tangential topic that I've never gotten around to.  Might as well bring it up here...

I hear in a number of piano players who were recording in the 50's a similar style, which I've never quite put my finger on, nor traced the origins of.  A few players that sound very similar to me at times (and there may be a few others I'm overlooking):  Hampton Hawes, Eddie Costa, Russ Freeman, Claude Williamson.  It's a manner of swinging, a particularly percussive approach to soloing, not really flashy but more earthy/bluesy/funky.  But it's the percussive element that stands out (listen to the lick at 2:34-2:37).  On the beat for the most part, and the occasional "bombs" from the left hand.  Horace Silver had a hand (pun probably intended) in inspiring this style, but in terms of this particular track and the elements of this player's style that prompted me to bring this up, I associate the sound more with the other players (and I would tend to put less emphasis on Hawes in this respect also, as he a broader technique at his disposal). 

So, before I get any further out in left field, does any of this make any sense to anybody?  What do you all think of this pianist (more ideas)?  If anyone else has zeroed in on this particular piano style, any thoughts on tracing it's origin?  As I said, I'm probably overlooking some other players, and it may have been far more widespread than I'm currently realizing.  Two people already know who the pianist here is, so I hope I don't end up falling off the limb I'm on. 

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Okay, even I can translate "Zut".    Thanks, John.  So... add one Joe Castro to my list of pianists with a certain similarity of style (to my ears, at least).  I don't own much JC, just a couple of Teddy Edwards discs, so I'm not terribly familiar with him, relatively speaking.  At any rate, my piano question remains... maybe this really was a widespread sound (but I'd still like to get a handle on it, if it's possible to associate a group of players in this way).

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Note that all the pianists you mention, save Costa, are Los Angelian, at least in terms of "career center". I'd guess that the sources would be equal parts Bud Powell, Horace Silver (who began recording w/Getz in 1950, I believe), Hampton Hawes, a native of the region who was probably independently going, to one degree or another, where Silver was going, and the reinforcement of popular/peer acceptance.

I do think that it was a, as you call it, "widespread sound" - mainly a "West Coast" one, and one defined to no small degree by how the piano was recorded on so many West Coast dates from the 50s - stark but warm, w/little or no reverb added to the sound. That dryness accentuated the percussive aspects of the sound.

I'll not claim that this is an "answer" to your query, but I too have long noticed that to which you refer, and this has been my take on it.

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Definitely "an" answer, if not "the" answer, and thanks for such a thorough response. I did indeed recognize the L.A. factor, and if not for Costa I would have assumed perhaps an almost exclusive geographic connection going on.

I suspect that Hawes is the key guy here, in terms of the specific sound that I'm talking about. I hadn't really considered Bud, although after listening again to some of his trio work last night, I do hear a general influence on the approach of the players in question (no revelation there). And in terms of Horace, I would say almost the same thing, except that he is more directly related to this (IMO) with respect to his phrasing and also his attack. As I said, I think of Hawes as being more versatile stylewise than Costa, Freeman, Williamson, et al (still need to check Castro out further), but when he's in this particular groove, it really brings these other players to mind. I know that Freeman was recording in the late 40's (with Bird, for one), and that Hawes goes back to the mid 40's. Not sure if Costa and Williamson go back quite that far, but I imagine all of these guys were listenting to/influencing each other.

couw mentioned Tristano (with whom I'm still not that familiar compared to a lot of other pianists of that era) as a possible influence on Costa. Anybody know about Costa's other early influences? Silver? Might Hawes be one?

[JSngry]

I know that Freeman was recording in the late 40's (with Bird, for one), and that Hawes goes back to the mid 40's.  Not sure if Costa and Williamson go back quite that far, but I imagine all of these guys were listenting to/influencing each other.

couw mentioned Tristano (with whom I'm still not that familiar compared to a lot of other pianists of that era) as a possible influence on Costa.  Anybody know about Costa's other early influences?  Silver?  Might Hawes be one?

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Claude Williamson (born in Vermont, btw, a refreshing change of pace ) was playing w/Charlie Barnett in 1947.

I really think that the line runs straight from Bud into both Silver and Hawes. Horace, as noted earlier, started w/Getz in 1950, and you know that those West Coast guys were checking out Getz sides! Hawes was a "local hero", no doubt, and was no doubt heard regularly and admiringly by all concerned. I'll credit my good buddy Joe Milazzo, a big Hawes fan, with putting the idea in my head that Hawes and Silver might well have been travelling independent yet similar roads in the early 1950s. Makes sense to me.

[JSngry]

I, too, hear it as piccolo, but I got curious. I checked to see if the upper notes of that line are technically possible on the flute. The top note is a G7, also referred to a 4th octave G, (that's high!) and in my search I found an interesting quote from Robert Dick, a well known contemporary flutist who is regarded as an expert on extended techniques:

"I spent a lot of time in the 1970s searching for the fourth octave G, which I never found under normal circumstances. At the time, I believed that the upper limit of the flute was simply a function of the strength of the flutist¹s desire (mine was unlimited) and body. I was also inspired by Cat Anderson, the famous high trumpeter in Duke Ellington¹s band. I did a gig with Cat, one week of the Ice Capades in New Haven, and was moved by his musicality, beautiful personality and cosmic chops. I thought, "if Cat can do it, Robert will too." So in the mid-70s I developed the embouchure strength, flexibility and sensitivity program that remains the backbone of my technique today. And although I found fantastic arrays of interesting and beautiful sounds, and some ugly ones too, I never got the fourth octave G.

While working at I.R.C.A.M. (roughly translated as the Institute of Research and Coordination of Acoustics and Music)in Paris in 1978, I spent time with the acoustician Arthur Benade. From him I learned about a truly distressing truth: the "high frequency cutoff" which is a reality for all musical instruments. For the flute, the fourth octave F# is the highest normal note, resonances above this are extremely weak. I read that one or two folks can occasionaly get a hint of the G and this makes sense in that the cutoff is not absolute but is the tail end of a weakening train of resonance. Thats why the high F natural is so difficult to play in tune with any kind of good tone quality. I tried the suggested fingering in another posting and got a transitional hint of G natural. The sound goes away so quickly because the lips cannot maintain enough pressure to compress the airstream at such a high speed. We can "muscleup" for a blast, but lose control quickly. Benade metioned that, if someday a flutist could muster the necessary power to jump from the fourth octave F# to the B natural above it, there would be frequencies again. I think that this is in the zone of totally diminished returns. The lip power necessary to keep the airstream focussed at the necessary velocity is quite possibly beyond what the human facial musculature is capable of. (And please lay off the steroids; this is art, not the NFL or East German swimming.)"

So I'm convinced that it can't be flute. Must be piccolo, credited or not.

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Can't argue with that!

[JSngry]

It seems that so far, couw and I are the only ones who hear something really weird about #13. Nobody else hears the bass and drums (especially the bass!) as sounding as if they weren't even in the same decade, much less on the same stage, as the rest of the band?

[DukeCity]

It seems that so far, couw and I are the only ones who hear something really weird about #13. Nobody else hears the bass and drums (especially the bass!) as sounding as if they weren't even in the same decade, much less on the same stage, as the rest of the band?

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I do remember hearing something strange with that track. The CD is in my office at work, so I won't be able to revisit #13 until the a.m.

[catesta]

It seems that so far, couw and I are the only ones who hear something really weird about #13. Nobody else hears the bass and drums (especially the bass!) as sounding as if they weren't even in the same decade, much less on the same stage, as the rest of the band?

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hehe

[Fer Urbina]

Definitely "an" answer, if not "the" answer, and thanks for such a thorough response.  I did indeed recognize the L.A. factor, and if not for Costa I would have assumed perhaps an almost exclusive geographic connection going on.

The geographical connection is not so far off-mark. Costa was in California in the National Guard before he was posted to Korea c. 1950. Although he had already played professionally in the East, apparently it was in California when he was introduced to the music of Bud Powell. In any case, he was in a military band and he did meet Californian jazz musicians.

F