bertrand Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 Could someone post the correct track listing for the Blue Note CD of Booby Hutcherson's San Francisco? I know the CD listing is incorrect. Thanks in advance, Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 11, 2003 Report Share Posted July 11, 2003 I now keep a post-it in my copy with the correct listing. It's pretty apparent from the liner note descriptions of the tunes, but a pain in the arse to refigure each time you sit down to listen, I got tired of recreating the wheel every time: 1. A Night in Barcelona 2. Goin' Down South 3. Procession 4. Ummh 5. Jazz 6. Prints Tie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFrank Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 If it's any consolation, the album cover of the vinyl is the same as listed here, but the label has: Side 1 1. Goin' Down South 2. Prints Tie 3. Jazz Side 2 1. Ummh 2. Procession 3. A Night in Barcelona What happened??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 A tangental note - Sample's "Jazz" can also be heard as the only "straight ahead" number on this album Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 12, 2003 Report Share Posted July 12, 2003 (edited) Funny Jim, the title list you provide from the label of the vinyl is the exact same screwed-up listing they used on the CD! What happened, indeed! Edited July 12, 2003 by DrJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 I have been investigating this and I believe the LP label and the CD listing are correct. Forget the liner notes - Gitler was looking at a wrong listing to get the titles he used. Had he looked at the LP label he would have used the correct titles. His comment that "Sample's 'Jazz,' an odd title for such an atmospheric piece, is a sunny afternoon seascape with Roker's cymbals supplying the waves as it builds in intensity. Hutcherson's vibes set the early mood and Land has an oboe interlude in the later section." This description is perfect for something titled "Procession". The truth is, the tune "Jazz" sounds exactly like JAZZ - (these are the notes to "Procession") - "a piquant, tartly attractive theme by Hutcherson [really Sample], is a straight-ahead promenade - neo-bop with special modifications." Jim says "Jazz" is on a Jazz Crusaders album and is a "straight-ahead" piece - well, there's no fucking way that anyone could describe the tune on San Francisco with the oboe solo as "straight-ahead". I just checked the Crusaders album on amazon.com and listened to the melody. This is the tune that is track #3 on the San Francisco CD. I rest my case. The LP label listing above matches how the CD plays. Everybody fix the liner notes (and the LP cover). That's where the errors are. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 ... and then there's the "Patterns" CD! (I liked the way you described that once, Tony. You said that it had a somber undertow, or something like that. That described it precisely.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoyt Clagwell Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 (edited) Maybe when Mosaic does the Bobby Hutcherson box, they can ask the man himself. Edited September 26, 2004 by Hoyt Clagwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fenohr Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 I tend to agree with Mike on this one. It would not be the first time in Blue Notes history that this has happened. Way back in the 10" days there were a number of covers with song lists on the front that bore no relation to the actual track sequence. After being around records for over forty years i have more trust in whats on the label then what might be on the cover or in the notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ariceffron Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 WAIT SO THERE ARE PRE- "BOOBY" INSTANCES OF BOBBY H BEING SCREWED BY BN??!?! THAT SUX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 ... and then there's the "Patterns" CD! (I liked the way you described that once, Tony. You said that it had a somber undertow, or something like that. That described it precisely.) What's the problem with that one? It's been a long time I had that in the CD player, but I don't remember noticing anything... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 (edited) ... and then there's the "Patterns" CD! (I liked the way you described that once, Tony. You said that it had a somber undertow, or something like that. That described it precisely.) What's the problem with that one? It's been a long time I had that in the CD player, but I don't remember noticing anything... they reversed the original side A and B on the disk. The booklet is correct wrt the tracks as they were on the original album, but the disk is not. It runs titles 4 to 6, then 1 to 3, and finishes with 7. Edited September 27, 2004 by couw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 ... and then there's the "Patterns" CD! (I liked the way you described that once, Tony. You said that it had a somber undertow, or something like that. That described it precisely.) What's the problem with that one? It's been a long time I had that in the CD player, but I don't remember noticing anything... they reversed the original side A and B on the disk. The booklet is correct wrt the tracks as they were on the original album, but the disk is not. It runs titles 4 to 6, then 1 to 3, and finishes with 7. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 I dunno, Mike, your discographical expertise MOST definitely far exceeds mine, so let me preface this by making that totally clear to everyone - no disrespect meant, and I freely admit I could be wrong... ...but with that said, I don't see how you can say with any certainty that the track listing they provide on the CD is correct. I don't have the CD right in front of me but as I recall there is one point where the liners describe a flute 'n vibes tune that HAS to be "Prints Tie," and that is very clearly the last track on the CD DESPITE what the tray card and painted on CD track list say. So what I'm now thinking, after giving your comments a very thorough consideration, is that it's basically impossible to confidently place the name with the tune for all the tracks. Some seem obvious to me because of the instrumental configuration or other characteristics, while others are indeed open to interpretation and perhaps I was overly hasty in pinning down a listing in my prior post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted October 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 This is getting really interesting. Mike made one unimpeachable point that track # 3 on the CD matches the tune called 'Jazz' on the Crusaders album (I believe him, but I have not checked out the soundbite yet to confirm). On the other hand, as Dr. J points out, the instrumentation described in the liners vs. the audible instrumentation should give some clues as well; I'm sure Mike was working with that as well. When I first posted this and Dr. J provided his track listing, I was pretty much convinced after reading the liners. But the thing about track # 3 definitely being 'Jazz' throws me off, so I need to revisit this. 'Procession' was also recorded (but rejected) for the Spiral/Medina sessions. Perhaps other pieces appear elsewhere as well (the Lord CD-ROM should answer that quickly). One way to settle this would be to try to get in touch with Hutcherson, Sample and Cuscuna. I will also try to see if I can dig up some copyright deposits. As we have seen in another thread on Mobley (e.g. the 'Soft Impressions'/'Chain Reaction' controversy), this may not settle things for sure, but it might help. To be continued... Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted October 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 Actually, this might help me get started (i.e., I may go to the Library of Congress real quick at lunch). What are the composer credits for each piece on the CD? I'll also check AMG. If anyone can post this by 1 PM EST, that would help. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 (edited) My point is that the liner notes are WRONG. Not possibly wrong, *verifiably* wrong. So you *can't* use their descriptions to match the titles. It's not interpretation at all. We can *guarantee* that the tune "Jazz" by Joe Sample is track 3 (not track 5, the tune with oboe). How? Because it was recorded at another session by Sample with the Jazz Crusaders. So, the liner note by Gitler that says "Jazz" is an odd title for such an atmospheric piece - is completely false. Listen to the amazon.com snippet of "Jazz" from the Jazz Crusaders record. It ain't atmospheric - it's JAZZ. The paragraph that goes with track 3 is the one that talks about "neo-bop" and "straight-ahead". The tune with flute is A Night In Barcelona, the only piece by Harold Land. All others are by Hutch except Jazz and Ummh by Sample. Goin' Down South is the first track and has the soul feel. It was also recorded on the Crusaders album "Pass The Plate" - have not heard yet. I don't think any of the others have been issued on any other recordings. Ummh is Ummh, no matter which listing, and Gitler's note about it being "aptly titled" fits perfectly. Mike Edited October 1, 2004 by Michael Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted October 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 (edited) Mike, I see your point about the liner notes, and I will ignore them completely. I think your composer credits in the posting above may be incorrect. I did a search at www.loc.gov and found EU copyright numbers for 'Prints Tie', 'Ummh' and 'Procession' under Hutcherson's name. The All Music Guide listing (which of course we can't really trust) also has 'Ummh' by Bobby; they say the second Sample tune is 'Goin' Down South', which makes sense, since you say it is on another Crusaders record. OK, off to the Library of Congress to see if I can find EU numbers for the Sample tunes and the Land piece. I can send a request for all this over the week-end, and if all goes well, I'll have lead sheets to look at next Friday and compare (using my limited piano skills) to the CD which I can copy to my new ipod - this gives me a good reason to actually try to learn how to use this thing before next week! Bertrand. Edited October 1, 2004 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 Yes, that was stupidity on my part. Obviously, the two tunes on Crusdaders records are the ones by Sample. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 I think I better understand your point now, thanks for clarifying. I will watch this space for new developments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 (edited) I have both of those (Jazz) Crusaders albums on Chisa (one was their last as the Jazz Crusaders, the secong their first as just The Crusaders), as well as what I'm guessing is a first pressing (but a well-worn used one) of SAN FRANCISO, and am going with Mike all the way on this one. The two Sample tunes on the two Crusaders albums correspond with their respective titles (although, I haven't pulled out, much less listened to, PASS THE PLATE in over 30 years, until just now, because it's really not very good at all, at least as I remember it) on the LP label. Consider this a confirmation, if you need one. LP running order as given on the label (and posted earlier by B Frank) must be considered correct (they fucked it up on the LP jacket as well): SIDE ONE: 1 - Goin' Down South 2 - Prints Tie 3 - Jazz SIDE TWO: 1 - Ummh 2 - Procession 3- A Night In Barcelona Edited October 1, 2004 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fenohr Posted October 1, 2004 Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 (edited) Boy, you guys don't give up easy. Fitz is a hundred percent right on this one. The vinyl label and cd tray card are the proper playing order. I am familiar with the Crusaders Pass The Plate album and can tell you that Goin Down South on that album is the same song as track 1 of the cd. The song Jazz you can check out for yourself at Amazon. It is the same song as track 3 on the cd. So since Jazz can be confirmed and Gitlers discription mentions an oboe interlude that can only be the discription of Procession which has the only oboe on the album and that is track 5. Everyone seems to be in agreement that Ummh is track 4, so that just leaves tracks 2 and 6. Since four of the traks are the songs the label states they are, odds are the other two are also. How could Gitler have been so wrong? This is just a possible scenerio. Most liners were written from test pressings and the labels in many cases were type or hand written as to song titles. So its possible that the titles were incorrect on the labels of the test. Its also possible that the sequence was changed after the notes were written, either at Bobby's request or by Duke Pearson the producer and the notes were never altered to reflect the changes. After all this was produced during the Liberty/UA years when they did not take the care that Al and Frank would have. Anyway guys i think the tracks on the cd are in the correct order and that's my story and im sticking to it. Edited October 1, 2004 by Bill Fenohr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted October 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2004 I'm with Mike on this too, but I still want to see those lead sheets! I found a copyright number for all tunes except 'Barcelona', so we should be able to get an independent confirmation by process of elimination. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Well, it took me longer than I thought (as usual) but the verdict is in (drum roll please)... ... and of course Mike was right. I went to the Library of Congress today with a musician friend of mine and we went through the copyright deposits for the tunes from this album. Based on the lead sheets, the tracks are as listed on the CD: Goin' Down South - Prints Tie - Jazz - Ummh - Procession The last one must be Night In Barcelona, for which I found no copyright. Ira Gitler must have been given incorrect titles. Keep the research projects coming - I love doing this stuff. I wish I could read music more than at an elementary level. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Thanks for your diligence. A real drag that this kind of confirmation isn't possible for everything since the LOC now allows sound recordings to serve as deposits. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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