Guest akanalog Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 soft machine wise-six is awesome. and like i said there is that recent bbc in concert performance from 1972 recently released which is just as good if not better. also that newer live 1975 release on a smaller label which i was able to find pretty eaily. that is bundles era stuff and also awesome. five i don't care for so much. dean and ratledge together gives me a headache. embryo reise i like a lot because it uses some sweet clavinet and electric piano action. are you saying you like or dislike that one, clifforde? and do you like bad heads? i like the addition of the american sort of soul singer (female) and the use of more keyboards on that one though i wish i had the disconforme reissue to get the lengthy bonus track. i don't know if embryo reise was really with local ethnic musicians unless you are thinking of the bonus tracks, which i have never actually listened to for some reason (i think since they were done relatively recently). the best embryo related thing i have heard is mal waldron's "the call' on japo. what an awesome album. just embryo related because it has waldron and the other early embryo keyboardist jimmy jackson on it (as well as eberhard weber and fred braceful who was in the krautrock group exmagma). i wish that album ws on disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 i wish MPS would get a little more adventurous in reissuing stuff. and plenty more of the Koller albums released were pretty "adventurous". It seems to me that currently, MPS is reissuing in waves related to certain birthday and similar occasions and then hikes on the publicity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 i didn't mean adventerous like that. personally i don't like those koller albums-but they reissued like 7 of them! i mean adventerous like maybe they could also reissue some other artists work besides hans koller and oscar peterson. why not release more volker kreigel albums? why not some sugarcane harris? why not some george duke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 i didn't mean adventerous like that. personally i don't like those koller albums-but they reissued like 7 of them! i mean adventerous like maybe they could also reissue some other artists work besides hans koller and oscar peterson. why not release more volker kreigel albums? why not some sugarcane harris? why not some george duke? drats! so then it has to be this one particular king of adventurousness as well! Personally I do like the Koller albums and I am glad they are available. Like I wrote, it seems that MPS has been planning their reissues around certain main events. There was Koller's grand prize and subsequent death, then OP's 80th birthday and they made sure stuff was available. Volker Kriegel is only 62 or so, and I guess he will have to wait some time or win something or die. Same with George Duke. The stuff they DO put out is absolutely fabulous though. Great sound and real nice packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 well that is an idiotic reissue policy, if i do say so myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 well that is an idiotic reissue policy, if i do say so myself. More frustrating than idiotic, I'd say. But yeah. A lot of John McLaughlin qualifies as fusion, but his earlier (and arguably better) sides are sort of post-bopish. Doesn't matter, though: anyone who does not own Extrapolation needs to but it right now. McLaughlin's also put in some heavier acoustic jazz, as on Jack Bruce's Things We Like (which often veers into fusionish territory). And CT mentioned Don Cherry--I'd like to add Brown Rice to that list, seeing as how it marries certain fusion elements (namely, electric instrumentation) with Cherry's usual bag of free jazz and world music. A classic, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 i've always found brown rice a dissapointment. not sure why. just never did it for me. maybe because the different elements didn't seem well intergrated. and the more fusion-ey elements were restricted to the shorter tracks and absent from the longer pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 i've always found brown rice a dissapointment. not sure why. just never did it for me. maybe because the different elements didn't seem well intergrated. and the more fusion-ey elements were restricted to the shorter tracks and absent from the longer pieces. That's the criticism I've heard. I think they're great precisely because they don't go on for too long, granted the fact that they seem more like one-offs or bookends than anything else (and I dig the grooves, so there's no accounting for that...). On the other hand, I think the longer tracks (as you say, the less "fusiony") are among the best Cherry ever put to wax. It's rare that the Cherry of the late-70's (probably his technical apex) assembled fully-realized, self-contained compositions in the world fusion mode, and both "Malkauns" and "Chenrezig" manage to completely integrate composition and improvisation without lapsing into the schizophrenia of long-form suites. For once, Cherry actually manages to stretch his trumpet improvisations into rather extended singular compositions--I mean, barring the two short tracks, Brown Rice is predominantly improv. Cherry never sounded better, and it's remarkable that he was wiling to devote so much time to his trumpet playing at that stage of his career. And the sidemen include Charlie Haden, Billy Higgins, Frank Lowe--geez! To get back on topic, some of Sonny Sharrock's less-aggressive 80's sides veer dangerously close to fusion. "Highlife" is almost a pop album, stylistically all-over-the-map but retaining enough improvisation to remain interesting. "Faith Moves" is probably a better option--a series of overdubbed guitar duets in a spacy, elegiac idiom--not too much for the Methenyite, I'd say. I might include "Guitar," but it's a little further off the map, hewing closer to Sharrock's free jazz origins. Really, Sharrock was "straightest" in the mid-70's, producing relatively drab albums such as "Paradise"--which is an unequivocal fusion album, if I ever heard one (Sonny sounds like a studio musician on those sides, he's that out of place). But his 80's material is definitely something to check out--if you're feeling intrepid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) Ak: yes, I do like Embryo's Reise quite a bit. Have yet to get a nice copy of The Call, though it's on my list. Christian Burchard did do some other work with Mal, which appears to be available both from the Embryo site as well as various Euro-improv trees. Brown Rice never really "took" for me, though the band looks solid on paper. I sort of wish that there was a complement to Brackeen's Rhythm X with Lowe in for Chuck - not that I don't like his playing a ton, but it would be cool to hear the rest of the players there - Cherry, Haden, Blackwell - with Frank. I don't know what the hell is going on with the MPS reissue program - did those CDs of Gittin' to Know Y'All and Afrodisiaca ever actually come out? Or, for that matter, Birds of Underground? They need a concentrated reissue program, as does the Fontana modern jazz catalog - but that's another story altogether! Edited January 26, 2006 by clifford_thornton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 clifforde, you have a ton of discs on the way, by the way, but have you purchased any of the live stuff available through the embryo site? i am intrigued but not sure where to begin. i have the garden of delights bremen 1972 embryo disc which is ok-lengthy jams on some riese era stuff. i wish waldron or jimmy jackson were there though (this band has a dude named aluminum (al) jones on guitar who doesn't do too much and i don't care for guitar as i said). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 also yes i agree brown rice doesn't come together for me either. any at least mps has a program-that makes it worse. they could be reissuing good stuff (i just ordered nathan davis' happy girl off of dustygroove speaking of mps reissues but i think this was via a japanese reissue program). fontana has no program besides the shady discs at downtown music gallery which i buy every so often (recently got juba lee). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 fontana has no program besides the shady discs at downtown music gallery which i buy every so often (recently got juba lee). That's Manny's program, not Fontana's! Juba-Lee is great, but it ain't fusion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Bremen '72 is pretty good IIRC. I think I have that somewhere... Sorry man, I can't dig Allan Holdsworth or Karl Jenkins (tho he was fine with Graham Collier - what happened?!?), and therefore Six didn't last too long in the shelves... That's an interesting observation you made about disliking guitars in jazz-rock outfits. Shit, 2/3 of the new Cellar Door box is without McLaughlin, and it smokes. McLaughlin is under-miked on his appearances, anyway, so it's not like he gets into the fray too much. It's definitely not 'necessary' to this end of the music, though a lot of folks think it is... Way Back When (Surman) is another fine example of guitar-less fusion, as would be most of the Don Cherry recs mentioned. But then there are sides like Where Fortune Smiles that remind one of how bad-ass heavy electric guitar work can sound in a jazz-rock context. Side two of that one sounds like something the Vandermark 5 would've cut in the early '90s, back when they were skronky and hung out with Weasel Walter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Way Back When is great. That's the one with John Marshall, if I'm not mistaken... a stalwart British jazz-rocker/fusioneer. A fine groover (if I've ever heard one)--his sides with Jack Bruce just knock me out. He provided an excellent foil for Surman in funkier contexts (and Collier, too). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) Found this one used recently: It has quite some period charm - I like it quite a lot, in fact. Volker Kriegel is on guitar. It's culled from several MPS albums, btw - personnaly, I think, this is about as much as I need of this stuff. Edited January 30, 2006 by king ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 there is something about alan holdsworth that works for me more than other guitarists when it comes to fusion-ish stuff. i mean i don't like it all but his work with soft machine and tony williams and jean luc ponty and even bill bruford impresses me. he has a weird tone, but it is original. i have a vinyl version of his CTI album which i like but i have heard it wasn't really ready for release and holdsworth didn't want it put out and has prevented a CD releae. karl jenkins was definitely good early on playing his oboe and piano with collier and also with nucleus. i know many people dislike his work in soft machine, but for someone who doesn't like guitars-having jenkins and ratledge both playing e-piano is something special (i know dean and ratledge did this earlier on in soft machine but frankly i don't really like elton dean on piano or sax or saxello). i also like jenkins fusion-ey compositions for what they are-sort of crappy riff based songs. but they do rock. though he seems to recycle riffs a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 there is something about alan holdsworth that works for me more than other guitarists when it comes to fusion-ish stuff. i mean i don't like it all but his work with soft machine and tony williams and jean luc ponty and even bill bruford impresses me. he has a weird tone, but it is original. i have a vinyl version of his CTI album which i like but i have heard it wasn't really ready for release and holdsworth didn't want it put out and has prevented a CD releae. They thought they were rehearsing. It's out on CD, but oop because of Holdsworth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 CTI doesn't seem like the kind of label to pull that kind of stuff. what is the deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 CTI doesn't seem like the kind of label to pull that kind of stuff. what is the deal? Experimenting I guess. What is it about post-Bruford grp Holdsworth that you don't like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 i guess i don't really like music in general around then (post bruford being heading into the 80s).... i don't really listen to modern stuff. i am sure holdsworth is fine even tough i was under the impression his stuff got very technically which wouldn't appeal to me-playing complex patterns and time signatures with guys like chad wackerman doesn't really interest me. i have a cool live performance from 1977 this thread made me remember where holdsworth is playing e-guitar with an otherwise acoustic jazz trio and does a nice version of a keith jarrett song from "my song". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 (edited) i guess i don't really like music in general around then (post bruford being heading into the 80s).... i don't really listen to modern stuff. He's the only one I've stuck with since the '80s. Once in a while I'll go back and listen to everything. i am sure holdsworth is fine even tough i was under the impression his stuff got very technically which wouldn't appeal to me-playing complex patterns and time signatures with guys like chad wackerman doesn't really interest me. i have a cool live performance from 1977 this thread made me remember where holdsworth is playing e-guitar with an otherwise acoustic jazz trio and does a nice version of a keith jarrett song from "my song". Sounds interesting, I wish he would play more acoustic. edit: you said "where holdsworth is playing e-guitar"....I should get my eyes checked. Edited January 30, 2006 by 7/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 http://www.diregarden.com/god113.html i did just pick that up and it is pretty good. don't mistake it for the other self-titled missus beastly album from 1969 which is too bluesy for my tastes but is i guess good for what it is. this one is almost a totally different band with some embryo-related people and others but it is sax and flute led fusion. good bassist and keyboardist. some live bonus tracks. good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 I'm wondering if the problem is recording process, rather than the actual music played - not being an expert at the 'how' myself, I still can say I prefer a lot of top-heavy grit to the crisp, clear and almost stereo-test levels that a lot of fusion-y records after about 1975 seem to hit. Does this make sense? It's just a thought... I'm surprised about the dismissal of Elton Dean, but to each one's own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi again! Nice too meet some fellow George Duke fans. He's the best in my book. Well some more great fusion could be: John Tropea's first two albums "Tropea" and "Short trip to space". Really great guitar stuff and "real" fusion. Only available in japan I'm afraid Jan Akkermans self titled album is also great and I would like to second the guys here with a big thumbs up for Jean Luc Poty's early stuff!!!! /Shaft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest akanalog Posted February 8, 2006 Report Share Posted February 8, 2006 i always get tropea and david spinozza confused since they were both 70s session dudes whos names ended in "a". guess tropea at least got a shot at putting out some of his own albums. i was listening to jean luc ponty's "enigmatic ocean" last night and my girlfriend came in and said "what is this? it sucks. it sounds like phish. like white people trying to play jazz." which i thought was funny. i guess it is kinda true since the drummer, steve smith, did then go on to play with journey??? anyway then i put on his "upon the wings of music" album which is really good and available on CD through collectables who sometimes do a crappy job, but this one is ok. but that last tune on "enigmatic ocean"-that bass solo is incredible. ralphe armstrong, an underrated fusion titan of a bassist-lets loose with a crazy effect. maybe some sort of distorted flanger thing-but it's great. you know what else is sweet? the combo of clarinet and fusion. or at least on billy cobham's "magic" album it works surprisingly well. i think it is alvin batiste on clarinet and he swoops and glides over cobham and companies fusion grooves tastefully and complimentarily. this is also a recommended fusion album though it does have some commercial cheese to it. speaking of that-the cobham/duke band really was an underrated combo. i don't usually like john scofield, but i think he really compliments this group. the main reason i like them so much is the song selection-they played the best of cobham and dukes songs, even stuff from duke's zappa days and even stuff from other peoples albums. for instance i was listening to a bootleg of them this morning and they played "involuntary bliss" from eddie henderson's "sunburst" album-i assume duke wrote it but perhaps not. but i'm just saying they had a wide and deep songbook for a fusion group. not to mention when you hear them open a show with some spaciness and then right into "crosswinds". that's a good tune and scofield really makes it sound nice even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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