Jimmy Raney Featuring Bob Brookmeyer

[Alexander Hawkins]

Brookmeyer of this vintage is an acquired taste; he's more than a bit square-ish rhythmically at times (often sounding like he's trying to improvise a yet unwritten Rodgers and Hammerstein tune)...

Another Instant Classic!

My reaction, exactly. Funny and true.

Same again! And I'm sure many people have read it already, but this kind of thing is on every page of Larry's book.

[fasstrack]

Brookmeyer of this vintage is an acquired taste; he's more than a bit square-ish rhythmically at times (often sounding like he's trying to improvise a yet unwritten Rodgers and Hammerstein tune)...

Another Instant Classic!

My reaction, exactly. Funny and true.

Same again! And I'm sure many people have read it already, but this kind of thing is on every page of Larry's book.

I'm sure I'm asking for trouble saying this, but years ago when I was fatmouthing about someone far my better to Jaki Byard Jaki put me in my place with the following rejoinder:

"Everybody's a big time critic, but nobody plays shit".

How's your valve trombone playing, Larry? Would love to hear some hip rhythms come from those lips. IMO it would beat the hell out of reading none-too-funny observations like that one. (Said with a smile and only to be taken so seriously).

[7/4]

How's your valve trombone playing, Larry?

I gave up on the Trombone about the same time I gave up on the Baritone horn. :rsly: :rsmile:

Edited April 11, 2006 by 7/4

[Alexander Hawkins]

Brookmeyer of this vintage is an acquired taste; he's more than a bit square-ish rhythmically at times (often sounding like he's trying to improvise a yet unwritten Rodgers and Hammerstein tune)...

Another Instant Classic!

My reaction, exactly. Funny and true.

Same again! And I'm sure many people have read it already, but this kind of thing is on every page of Larry's book.

I'm sure I'm asking for trouble saying this, but years ago when I was fatmouthing about someone far my better to Jaki Byard Jaki put me in my place with the following rejoinder:

"Everybody's a big time critic, but nobody plays shit".

How's your valve trombone playing, Larry? Would love to hear some hip rhythms come from those lips. IMO it would beat the hell out of reading none-too-funny observations like that one. (Said with a smile and only to be taken so seriously).

I appreciate Jaki's sentiment there, but essentially, his point is rather weak, surely? I love football (some of you may like baseball ). Whatever - some of us probably really *know* the game as well. Can we *play* it though? Jose Mourinho is developing into one of the great football coaches, period. He was an awful player, however.

Now, for sure there's eloquent, critically (a)cute musicians; there's also some, I suspect, who we'd like to glue to their mouthpieces. There's hypocritical, dilletantish non-playing listeners; however, there are also those with uncanny gifts for expressing something essential about the music.

[Chuck Nessa]

Simply, one needn't be a chef to recognize swill.

[Larry Kart]

Hey, fasstrack, if I could play the sort of stuff that I like to hear -- or, to push it a bit further into the realm of fantasy, if I could play the things I like to think I would if I could play at all -- the results might be pretty nice. Certainly, if I sounded the way Brookmeyer did rhythmically in the '50s (for the most part), I wouldn't be very happy and would try to do something about it. In fact, as it happens, I think Brookmeyer did. He pretty much told me so when we exchanged e-mails a few years back, and I mentioned that I'd noticed a significant shift in his rhythmic approach in the late-1970s -- it's particuarly evident I think on the 2-LP "Bob Brookmeyer Small Band" (Gryphon, 1978) and "Through a Looking Glass" (Finesse, 1981). He agreed that he had made a big turnaround around then -- musically and in his personal life as well (alluding I think to the end of an unhappy marriage or relationship, breaking away from alcohol, and getting hitched to the right woman).

[Alexander Hawkins]

Simply, one needn't be a chef to recognize swill.

That's the one.

[John Tapscott]

I picked up this CD a month or so ago, and I must say I really dig Brookmeyer's playing here. Raney on the other hand, seems underrecorded to me. His solos don't grab me the way Bob's do. I've not heard this one with headphones yet, so I guess I need to do that to really hear Jimmy. Overall, I think it's a good CD, though I'm not quite as knocked out by it as some others. I would hesitate to call it an instant classic. But, different strokes and all....

Edited April 11, 2006 by John Tapscott

[fasstrack]

Hey, fasstrack, if I could play the sort of stuff that I like to hear -- or, to push it a bit further into the realm of fantasy, if I could play the things I like to think I would if I could play at all -- the results might be pretty nice. C

He agreed that he had made a big turnaround around then -- musically and in his personal life as well (alluding I think to the end of an unhappy marriage or relationship, breaking away from alcohol, and getting hitched to the right woman).

To point one: And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a trolley car....

And forgive me for being overly harsh on you. We all have bugs up our asses and one of mine is people blithely shit-talking on the Internet, especially about people that good. Of course your opinion is as valid as the next guy's--the next non-playing guy's that is. But say it to the guy's face. That takes balls and the courage of one's convictions. Or better yet, since you don't play, try to master an instrument. Spend even a few years putting in time on any instrument (for openers---a lifetime isn't enough to master an instrument. Ask any good player), test your skills on gigs or even jam sessions. There are plenty of amateurs there, Lord knows. Peep what the cats think of you, that's the only meaningful barometer besides your own self-awareness. See if if you can get to the level Brook was at even back then---then we'll talk. Because, as you will find out, this shit is hard. At any rate, after walking a mile in our moccasins I bet you won't be so fast to make any critical comments. And if you still do, well......

Point two: I know Bob slightly too, through a mutual friend. Yes, he has been keenly self-appraising of his own progress as artists (and humans) must be.

[Chuck Nessa]

Point two: I know Bob slightly too, through a mutual friend.

How did I already guess this?

[7/4]

And forgive me for being overly harsh on you. We all have bugs up our asses

At least it's not a trombone or god forbid......a tuba.

[fasstrack]

I appreciate Jaki's sentiment there, but essentially, his point is rather weak, surely?

I don't think it was weak at all. It sure straightened my young, insolent ass out. It must've had quite an impact, because the incident in question occured well over 20 years ago and I'm still quoting him. He was right on the money. It's very easy to talk critically, very hard to play, I mean to play, not half-step. This does not mean that players or non-players alike have no right to opinions or expression of same. Nor does it mean that people don't have valid critical points to make, of course they do, or that witty remarks are out of order about any member of this race of knuckleheads. (I'm knucklehead numero uno, president of the club and also a client).

But my only point, and I agree I was overly harsh on Mr. Kart and feel badly in retrospect, is that when you put sweat and toil and years into learning to play, as I and others have and continue to do, it's pretty humbling if you're doing it right and learning from the masters. In such an undertaking you perhaps become loath to make or even read any glibly dismissive remarks about your brethrens' or betters' efforts, at least made publicly, and especially from a non-player. That's what set me off. But I did over-react and Ii'm sorry to hurt anyone's feelings.. Just sticking up for the tribe. This is not an easy life.

[JSngry]

I feel your pain, but as a fellow knucklehead, you know as well as I do that sometimes the truth is best expressed in summary form.

Larry's comment was a brilliant summary, I think, and I took no offense at all. And I will rise to the challenge when I hear glib dismissals w/o any underlying validity, trust me.

And either way, you gotta admit that that was a helluva line. That it rang true was just icing on the cake. Larry can "play" with words the way that some play with notes and instrument. I give him major props for that. AFAIC, he's a "word musician", and he can definitely play!

[fasstrack]

I feel your pain, but as a fellow knucklehead, you know as well as I do that sometimes the truth is best expressed in summary form.

Larry's comment was a brilliant summary, I think, and I took no offense at all. And I will rise to the challenge when I hear glib dismissals w/o any underlying validity, trust me.

And either way, you gotta admit that that was a helluva line. That it rang true was just icing on the cake. Larry can "play" with words the way that some play with notes and instrument. I give him major props for that. AFAIC, he's a "word musician", and he can definitely play!

Yeah. Well I apologized. Now I think I'll go read some Beckett....

[Larry Kart]

Actually, I just discovered (or rather re-discovered, having long forgotten it), that my Brookmeyer remark must have been based to some extent on a passage in Andre Hodeir's "Jazz: It's Evolution and Essence." To wit (p. 269-70):

"It is not surprising that Mulligan took Chet Baker as a sideman when he formed his Quartet, or that he chose the trombonist Bob Brookmeyer to replace him.... These two young soloists have a conception of jazz that is much like his. It is based on the use of modern material (sonority, attack, various harmonic elements) in a resolutely traditional manner.... The most debatable part of this conception is the resulting rhythmic vocabulary. Brookmeyer in particular seems to have a fondness for certain syncopated formulas and frankly corny accentuations that jazzmen had eliminated during the classical period [Hodeir's term for, roughly, the 1930-1940 era]; he doesn't hesitate to use them side by side with a legato type of phrase built on eighth notes.

Few will deny that the result is asymmetry, a kind of hybrid.... When a writer who is qualified to speak on the subject says that Brookmeyer, in 'Open Country,' 'uses the lilt of 1930 Broadway songs with considerable wit,' how are we to imagine that he means this as praise rather than condemnation?"

Now THERE'S a hanging judge.

[Alexander Hawkins]

This is not an easy life.

Agreed! I think we're basically reading off the same page here. Of course, all of us that play - and, I take it, any conscientious non-players - can't stand uninformed criticism. It's just that being informed doesn't only come from playing.

p.s. no feelings hurt at any stage

[AllenLowe]

sorry, it does not matter a bit if you can play the stuff or not, especially when you're a critic of Larry Kart's caliber - and if especially if you've ever read Brookmeyer's assesments of fellow musicians, which are horribly harsh. The truth is the music, and if a critic can give us insight into that, it doesn't matter if he's a player, critic, or garbage man -

Edited April 12, 2006 by AllenLowe

[fasstrack]

Now THERE'S a hanging judge.

Good one! Hell, I might wind up being president of the Larry Kart fan club after that rough start!

Larry, I'm a compulsive writer myself. Never asked for or made a dime off it. Wouldn't have the heart to do music criticism. After all, why have the balls to say publicly what I can behind peoples backs, like everyone else does ?

And when it comes to talking I know I must be good at it. 'Cause everyone always tells me 'shut up' (insert deadpan emoticon here). But it all ain't naught but opinion, player or no. The only 'words' that matter are the ones coming from my guitar on the stand. (isn't it charming how I sneak in little crass self-advertisements? ). The rest is chin music.

Anyway, in that regard if it's true that you copped that line unconsciously from Hodeir, I guess it's all grist for the mill----but I find that in the end our ears----players, fans, critics, chia plants----are are two best friends in getting what we will out of music. It starts and ends with listening.

In jazz every tub stands on it's own bottom, speaking of old quotes. And every ear hears its own music.

[AllenLowe]

I would suggest reading Larry's book, and I will add (and I'm not just saying this because Larry sends me monthly checks) that he is, to my way of thinking, simply one of the most insightfull jazz critics anywhere. I'm always a bit wary of testimony that one cannot understand the music without "living the life" or understanding the blood sweat and tears of it - I'm wary of the anti-intellectualism of this, and because the best jazz critics I've ever known were all non-musicians -

[Larry Kart]

Next month a bonus check.

[AllenLowe]

make it out to "cash"

[jlhoots]

make it out to "cash"

[fasstrack]

I would suggest reading Larry's book, and I will add (and I'm not just saying this because Larry sends me monthly checks) that he is, to my way of thinking, simply one of the most insightfull jazz critics anywhere. I'm always a bit wary of testimony that one cannot understand the music without "living the life" or understanding the blood sweat and tears of it - I'm wary of the anti-intellectualism of this, and because the best jazz critics I've ever known were all non-musicians -

And that book would be?

The best critics were musicians that were jealous 'cause other guys they think they're better than have gigs. Jazz musicians who are working---and i interviewed all 6---don't have time for that stuff. Maybe they'll make a crack about a guy they have to play with who really does suck. Or maybe a prick like Stan Getz was reported to be saying certain things.

You feel a story coming on, you say? Right you are!!

Speaking of Jimmy, I did know him. I was a young man and approached him to study. The following summer ('80) he was staying in Brooklyn with a coulple of young guys from his hometown, Louiseville. (He was in for a re-unite w/Getz and Al Haig for the Newport Festival or whatever it was called by then). Raney's observation of the apartment's decor was to intone in his Kentucky twang:

"You know I've seen furniture on the street, but it always looked better than this".

So he called Stan from the place. After they talked he kind of chuckled. Then he told us Stan hated playing with Walter Bishop Jr., calling his playing "hard and glassy".

"Um, Stan, are you sure you don't mean Walter DavisJr.?"

"Same thing"

[fasstrack]

I would suggest reading Larry's book, and I will add (and I'm not just saying this because Larry sends me monthly checks) that he is, to my way of thinking, simply one of the most insightfull jazz critics anywhere. I'm always a bit wary of testimony that one cannot understand the music without "living the life" or understanding the blood sweat and tears of it - I'm wary of the anti-intellectualism of this, and because the best jazz critics I've ever known were all non-musicians -

And that book would be?

The best critics were musicians that were jealous 'cause other guys they think they're better than have gigs. Jazz musicians who are working---and i interviewed all 6---don't have time for that stuff. Maybe they'll make a crack about a guy they have to play with who really does suck. Or maybe a prick like Stan Getz was reported to be saying certain things.

You feel a story coming on, you say? Right you are!!

Speaking of Jimmy, I did know him. I was a young man and approached him to study. The following summer ('80) he was staying in Brooklyn with a coulple of young guys from his hometown, Louiseville. (He was in for a re-unite w/Getz and Al Haig for the Newport Festival or whatever it was called by then). Raney's observation of the apartment's decor was to intone in his Kentucky twang:

"You know I've seen furniture on the street, but it always looked better than this".

So he called Stan from the place. After they talked he kind of chuckled. Then he told us Stan hated playing with Walter Bishop Jr., calling his playing "hard and glassy".

"Um, Stan, are you sure you don't mean Walter DavisJr.?"

"Same thing"

Oops, funny story, faulty premise. I thought he said the best critics were musicians, not non-musicians. What I wrote is still true though, at least to me.

[Clunky]

I guess I must have the acquired taste of early Brookmeyer but it now all makes a bit more sense and I really hear what Larry's talking about in his playing. Folksy and rhythmically square but I quite like a bit of that, it works so well with Mulligan, Giuffre and on his own material. Thanks for the insight...