Who Wrote "The Theme"?

[Niko]

at aaj iirc they have a thread where it says that you are not supposed to discuss this question there anymore (Jimmy Mundy wrote Walkin)

still wondering who wrote all those Carpenter/Bruce compositions on the Chet Baker / George Coleman / Richard Carpenter sessions...

Yes, I've seen Walkin' (or 'Gravy') attributed to both.

Seems Carpenter's theft of Mundy's compositions isn't limited to 'Walkin''. This is from James Gavin's biography of Chet Baker, Deep In a Dream:

In the manner of the quickie bop-record dates of the fifties, when albums were done in a day with hardly any rehearsal. Baker and his group showed up at each session and basically winged it. Jimmy Mundy sat in the control room, anonymously churning out songs for which Carpenter took credit. "He was writing the next tune while we were recording the tune before," said [Kirk] Lightsey. Carpenter had brought along a bundle of Tadd Dameron's music, plus a few Sonny Stitt pieces on which he claimed coauthorship.

Seems like Carpenter ripped off everyone who came in contact with him.

cool, thank you! always thought, maybe the deal with Dameron was that he brought Baker in contact with Carpenter and in return got his music recorded under his own name... (and it seems that Carpenter was more cautious than in his earlier days as he let (iirc) one tune appear as written by Mundy and had singer Gladys Bruce or Stitt appear as the second author on "his" compositions so that no one could claim that Carpenter as a non-musician was unable to compose these tunes...)

[bertrand]

A few comments:

1) '52nd Street Theme' credited to Monk (and never recorded by him) is a completely different composition than the set-closer 'The Theme'.

2) 'at aaj iirc they have a thread where it says that you are not supposed to discuss this question there anymore'

Rules like these are why I only post on organissimo.

3) The other Vinson tune is 'Tune Up'. Max Roach identifies it as a Vinson tune in the spoken intro on the Newport set with Booker Little (see Mosaic Box).

4) 'Of course, we may be making a mistake by assuming that anyone 'wrote' 'The Theme'. We are, after all, talking about a riff tune based on the 'I Got Rhythm' changes.'

You are absolutely correct. That was my point - KD put in a copyright first, so he 'won', but that does not mean he actually sat down with pen and paper and composed it (although he did send him some sort of copyright later).

5) 'Me and Gil wrote 'Boplicity' but credited it to my mother, Cleo Henry, because I wanted it in a different publishing house than the one I was signed with. So I just put her name on it.'

Bet you a dollar Miles never actually said those words to Quincy Troupe. I strongly suspect this a grotesque over-simplification of the real reson Miles' mother got credit for the tune. Maybe people from the BOTC sessions might have some insight: Gunther Schuller? Lee Konitz? Mike Zwerin?

Interesting discussion.

Bertrand.

Edited February 1, 2007 by bertrand

[bertrand]

We should make sure we are talking about the same tune, by the way.

There's a 'Theme' on at least one Miles Prestige record, which is like a complete 5-minute tune. The 'Theme' that Blakey plays under Pee-Wee Marquette (did that guy ever shut up?) is not necessarily the same thing, nor is it the same as the 'Theme' Miles would use in the 60s.

It might be helpful to post some recording references to try to distinguish these (I don't have my iTunes folder handy). I think the copyright deposit may be a lengthier thing, parts of which are not played as part of the set-closer.

Bertrand.

Edited February 1, 2007 by bertrand

[Rosco]

5) 'Me and Gil wrote 'Boplicity' but credited it to my mother, Cleo Henry, because I wanted it in a different publishing house than the one I was signed with. So I just put her name on it.'

Bet you a dollar Miles never actually said those words to Quincy Troupe. I strongly suspect this a grotesque over-simplification of the real reson Miles' mother got credit for the tune. Maybe people from the BOTC sessions might have some insight: Gunther Schuller? Lee Konitz? Mike Zwerin?

You'll note I used the word "autobiography" in quotes. Not the most reliable source of information, of course. It would seem to have a vague ring of truth about it. While with Charlie Parker, Miles had written 'Donna Lee' although it got credited to Bird. According to John Szwed in 'So What' "On the advice of his father, Davis registered the composition [of Boplicity] under his mother's maiden name, to make sure his rights were protected."

Here's another question that's always bugged me... who wrote 'Nardis'? Again, Miles got the credit... I seem to recall someone somewhere saying that Miles got the tune from 'some dead guy'. Wish I could remember where I saw that quote. Anyway, beautiful tune.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Rosco

[Larry Kart]

Rosco -- This doesn't definitively answer your question about "Nardis" but may flesh out the context a bit: In Peter Pettinger's Bill Evans bio "How My Heart Sings," Pettinger writes (p. 58) of the Riverside album "Portrait of Cannonball, "...the session was important for the first performance of 'Nardis,' specially written for Adderley and this session by Miles Davis."

[medjuck]

We should make sure we are talking about the same tune, by the way.

There's a 'Theme' on at least one Miles Prestige record, which is like a complete 5-minute tune. The 'Theme' that Blakey plays under Pee-Wee Marquette (did that guy ever shut up?) is not necessarily the same thing, nor is it the same as the 'Theme' Miles would use in the 60s.

It might be helpful to post some recording references to try to distinguish these (I don't have my iTunes folder handy). I think the copyright deposit may be a lengthier thing, parts of which are not played as part of the set-closer.

Bertrand.

"The Theme" to which I'm referring is the one on the first Lp of the Davis/Coltrane quintet on Prestige recorded November 16, 1955. This session has been released under various titles. In May of '56 he recorded 2 takes of a --variation different enough to be considered a new tune-- though it ends with the same closing riff. He then took one of his compositions from Someday My Prince Will Come (at least he claimed he wrote it) and made it his new theme. (Neo? Teo?-- I forget which.)

But "The Theme" I heard all the time in the sixties was the one Miles recorded in '55. Was he even the first to record it?

[Rosco]

But "The Theme" I heard all the time in the sixties was the one Miles recorded in '55. Was he even the first to record it?

I have a version of it by Paul Bley with Charles Mingus and Art Blakey, recorded November 30, 1953 from the sessions for Introducing Paul Bley (Debut), although it wasn't included on the original album. The CD booklet credits 'writer unknown'. (Coincidentally, that album also includes a version of Walkin' that pre-dates Miles' by five months)

[medjuck]

Well at least Miles never claimed to have written "Walkin'". I guess Carpenter beat him to it. But isn't there another tune he did that sounds a lot like it and to which I think he did claim authorship. (Syd's Ahead?)

[Rosco]

Well at least Miles never claimed to have written "Walkin'". I guess Carpenter beat him to it. But isn't there another tune he did that sounds a lot like it and to which I think he did claim authorship. (Syd's Ahead?)

Yep, Sid's Ahead on 'Milestones'. He'd also recorded it previously on Blue Note with the title 'Weirdo'.

[CJ Shearn]

wow this discussion is getting more confusing. The version the JM's recorded at the Cafe Bohemia, has the only written bridge I ever heard to that tune. Bertrand are you talking about "The Theme" versions by Miles where he improvises and trades with Philly Joe or Jimmy Cobb and then a few bars of the riff comes in at the end?