The Baseball Thread 2007

[alocispepraluger102]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

likewise kirby.

Actually, no, because Kirby Puckett was elected by the writers, not the Veteran's Committee, and furthermore, if he hadn't been forced to retire when he did, he was well on his way to achieving the lifetime statistics that make you a lock for the Hall. That's why he was elected in, I believe, his first year of eligibility.

respectfully disagreeing. if exceptions were made for all the great players whose careers became tragically shortened, the hall would have many more members. tony conigliaro and thurman munson come to mind.

Edited August 14, 2007 by alocispepraluger102

[BERIGAN]

Rob Neyer on Scooter....

Rizzuto better than stats indicatedposted: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry

Phil Rizzuto was a Yankee LegendTM, and once someone is a legend, it becomes difficult to separate fact from fiction. There are those who will argue that if Rizzuto wasn't a Yankee LegendTM -- if he had played for some other team or not been on the radio forever -- he wouldn't have been (finally, mercifully) elected to the Hall of Fame in 1994.

Well, that's probably true. In his "New Historical Baseball Abstract," Bill James wrote that when Rizzuto was forced into retirement in 1956, "Many articles were written then, summarizing Rizzuto's fine career. None of them, that I have seen, suggested that he might be a Hall of Famer."

That's probably a bit misleading; in 1962, Rizzuto's first year of eligibility, he received more Hall of Fame votes than many, many future Hall of Famers (including contemporary shortstops Lou Boudreau and Arky Vaughan). But Rizzuto never really built much on that early support until 1976, when he was listed on 38 percent of the ballots, at which point his candidacy was passed along to the Veterans Committee. And in 1994, that august body finally ended the years of controversy by electing him.

This generally is seen as yet another flawed result, and it's clear that the process was terribly flawed. You get a bunch of old men in a room and let them start horse-trading, and the results won't be pretty. You look at Rizzuto's career, and you see a player who wasn't much of a hitter, either qualitatively (.355 career slugging percentage) or quantitatively (1,588 career hits).

That's objectively true ... but leaves out the salient arguments for Rizzuto's greatness. Actually, there's really just one argument, from which everything else flows: World War II. As a rookie in 1941, Rizzuto batted .307. In 1942, he batted .287. He was 25 and just about to enter the prime of his career. At which point he, like almost every other great baseball player in America, went into the service. Rizzuto didn't see any combat during the war, but that doesn't mean it didn't wipe out a good chunk of his career. He spent three full seasons in the Navy. And while he did play a lot of baseball and didn't see much combat, he did pick up a nasty case of malaria while serving in the Pacific.

Rizzuto returned to the Yankees in 1946, but he simply wasn't the same hitter he'd been before the war. Even leaving that aside, though, it's fair to assume that those three lost seasons cost Rizzuto somewhere between 450 and 500 hits, which would put him comfortably over 2,000 for his career. That's not bad, quantitatively. As for the quality, Rizzuto probably was a better hitter, relative to his league, than Ozzie Smith.

Of course, Smith's not in the Hall of Fame for his hitting. But Rizzuto was an outstanding shortstop, too. According to James, Rizzuto "deserved the American League Gold Glove" -- if one had existed -- "in 1941, 1942, 1946 and 1950 ... ." Well, if he was the best defensive shortstop in 1942 and 1946, we can assume he'd have been the best defensive shortstop from 1943 through 1945, right? If he'd been around? So now we're talking about a seven-time Gold Glover with more than 2,000 hits and a (well-earned) MVP Award in 1950.

As a player, Rizzuto wasn't as good as Ozzie Smith. He wasn't as good as his supposed equal, Pee Wee Reese. And it's hard to take him seriously as a broadcaster, considering his penchant for rambling on about Italian food while runners were circling the bases. As a Hall of Famer, though? The Scooter's no joke.

[Randy Twizzle]

I for one loved Rizzuto's broadcasting work. It's what most of the people tearing up today over his death fondly recall. He was a huge part of the NY baseball summer for over four decades and even non-Yankees fans like myself loved hearing him. I'm sorry that some of the baseball nerds of today just don't get it. From Cliff Cocoran at SI.com:

My voice was one of those calling Rizzuto back. The Scooter may have had more to do with my becoming a baseball fan than anyone else. Though my family is filled with Yankees fans dating back to the days of Babe Ruth, I had no older sibling to turn me on to baseball and neither of my parents was particularly interested in professional sports when I was growing up. Instead it was Rizzuto, with his enthusiasm, good humor and wildly entertaining and unpredictable asides (which were a good match for the often tragicomic play of the mid-'80s Yankees), who sold me on the joys of the game and its history despite the poor quality of the team I was watching.

[Dan Gould]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

likewise kirby.

Actually, no, because Kirby Puckett was elected by the writers, not the Veteran's Committee, and furthermore, if he hadn't been forced to retire when he did, he was well on his way to achieving the lifetime statistics that make you a lock for the Hall. That's why he was elected in, I believe, his first year of eligibility.

respectfully disagreeing. if exceptions were made for all the great players whose careers became tragically shortened, the hall would have many more members. tony conigliaro and thurman munson come to mind.

Tony C. had his career ruined when he was way too young - a classic case of what could have been, especially playing in Fenway (he was the youngest to 100 home runs, iirc). This is hardly equivalent.

Munson is a tougher case but the fact is that he was eligible and didn't get the votes. Again, I don't think that Kirby got in because of the eye problem, he got in because at that point he was already a hall of famer.

[Johnny E]

[Randy Twizzle]

Another great quote about Rizzuto from sportsjournalists.com

What a sad, sad day on so many levels. Watching WPIX broadcasts with my dad and laughing at the Scooter--out of equal parts amusement and annoyance--was a staple of my childhood. Later, of course, I came to realize that the joy of listening to Rizzuto was in how he turned the game into a backdrop for his running conversation. He was like the rollicking friend whom we'd like to have sitting next to us during a game. You might not catch every pitch and you might even miss a few runs, but you'd go home with a smile on your face.

And let's not forget the book of Phil Rizzuto found poems "O Holy Cow"

ASYLUM

Got some chocolate-chip cookies here

Murcer.

So don't ask me any questions

For a batter or so.

All right?

[alocispepraluger102]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

likewise kirby.

Actually, no, because Kirby Puckett was elected by the writers, not the Veteran's Committee, and furthermore, if he hadn't been forced to retire when he did, he was well on his way to achieving the lifetime statistics that make you a lock for the Hall. That's why he was elected in, I believe, his first year of eligibility.

respectfully disagreeing. if exceptions were made for all the great players whose careers became tragically shortened, the hall would have many more members. tony conigliaro and thurman munson come to mind.

Tony C. had his career ruined when he was way too young - a classic case of what could have been, especially playing in Fenway (he was the youngest to 100 home runs, iirc). This is hardly equivalent.

Munson is a tougher case but the fact is that he was eligible and didn't get the votes. Again, I don't think that Kirby got in because of the eye problem, he got in because at that point he was already a hall of famer.

your knowledge of baseball facts far exceeds mine. thanks very much for your knowledge and input.

[GA Russell]

This is from Fox News today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293256,00.html

Study: Major League Baseball Umpires Call Strikes Based on Race

Tuesday, August 14, 2007

Major League Baseball umpires are more likely to call strikes for pitchers of the same race or ethnicity, a new study finds.

Researchers at the University of Texas at Austin analyzed every pitch from the 2004 through 2006 major-league seasons to explore whether racial discrimination factored into umpires’ decisions to call a pitch a strike or a ball.

Just as discrimination in the labor market can affect disparities in wages, promotion and performance evaluation, the researchers said, possible discrimination by umpires could affect the outcome of games and careers.

During a typical baseball game, umpires call about 75 pitches for each team (they call about 400,000 pitches over the whole season, excluding foul balls), so an umpire’s evaluation heavily influences pitcher productivity and performance.

“Umpires judge the performance of players every game, deciding whether pitches are strikes or balls,” said study leader Daniel Hamermesh, an economist who will present his findings next month at his campus and later at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. “Discrimination affects the outcome of a game and the labor market, determining the pitcher’s market value and compensation.”

The researchers found if a pitcher is of the same race or ethnicity as the home plate umpire, more strikes are called and his team’s chance of winning is improved.

The power to evaluate players’ performances disproportionately belonged chiefly to white umpires, while negative calls particularly impacted minority pitchers, Hamermesh said.

But this behavior diminishes when the umpire's calls are more closely scrutinized — for example at ballparks with electronic monitoring systems, in full-count situation where there are 3 balls or 2 strikes, or at well-attended games.

Hamermesh said the study is drawing more comments, so far, from his colleagues than any of his previous work.

"I did not know how many economists are hung up on baseball," he told LiveScience.

[alocispepraluger102]

This is from Fox News today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293256,00.html

Study: Major League Baseball Umpires Call Strikes Based on Race

Tuesday, August 14, 2007

Major League Baseball umpires are more likely to call strikes for pitchers of the same race or ethnicity, a new study finds.

Researchers at the University of Texas at Austin analyzed every pitch from the 2004 through 2006 major-league seasons to explore whether racial discrimination factored into umpires’ decisions to call a pitch a strike or a ball.

Just as discrimination in the labor market can affect disparities in wages, promotion and performance evaluation, the researchers said, possible discrimination by umpires could affect the outcome of games and careers.

During a typical baseball game, umpires call about 75 pitches for each team (they call about 400,000 pitches over the whole season, excluding foul balls), so an umpire’s evaluation heavily influences pitcher productivity and performance.

“Umpires judge the performance of players every game, deciding whether pitches are strikes or balls,” said study leader Daniel Hamermesh, an economist who will present his findings next month at his campus and later at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. “Discrimination affects the outcome of a game and the labor market, determining the pitcher’s market value and compensation.”

The researchers found if a pitcher is of the same race or ethnicity as the home plate umpire, more strikes are called and his team’s chance of winning is improved.

The power to evaluate players’ performances disproportionately belonged chiefly to white umpires, while negative calls particularly impacted minority pitchers, Hamermesh said.

But this behavior diminishes when the umpire's calls are more closely scrutinized — for example at ballparks with electronic monitoring systems, in full-count situation where there are 3 balls or 2 strikes, or at well-attended games.

Hamermesh said the study is drawing more comments, so far, from his colleagues than any of his previous work.

"I did not know how many economists are hung up on baseball," he told LiveScience.

ascertaining umpires to be human is a significant accomplishment.

[Tim McG]

Jon Abbey at JC started a great thread a while back about this book, which makes for a very entertaining read and homage to this HOFer. RIP Phil.

Great book, bad poster.

[Dan Gould]

This is from Fox News today:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293256,00.html

Study: Major League Baseball Umpires Call Strikes Based on Race

Tuesday, August 14, 2007

Major League Baseball umpires are more likely to call strikes for pitchers of the same race or ethnicity, a new study finds.

Its not reported in this article, but the NYT report mentioned that the study showed that on average ONE PITCH per game was called "based on race".

I have a very hard time believing that under any circumstances that supposed 1 pitch has any effect on the outcome of a game.

[Dan Gould]

Finally a good day at the ballpark.

Jon Lester makes an emotional return to Fenway and goes seven very strong innings, allowing just 1 run on two hits, yet he was in line for the tough luck loss to Scott Kazmir until the ninth, when Lowell hit a game-tying homer, then Tek doubled with two outs and Coco drove him home, for a rare and very much needed walk off win.

Plus the Yanks got clobbered, as I frankly suspected with Karstens going in place of the grounded Rocket; and I like our chances tomorrow as the D-Rays have someone who is 1-8 facing Dice K while the Yanks have to contend with Erik Bedard.

[Patrick]

Finally a good day at the ballpark.

Completely disagree. Nice to see Cabrera pitch well against the Skankees (2 hits but a ton of walks), but Joe Borowski needs to be banished to long relief. Another quality outing for Sabathia gets him a no decision. At the break I thought he had a shot at 20 wins, but those days are gone now. After 7 from Sabathia (96 pitches, 2 runs), Betancourt provided two scoreless innings. Borowski then through BP. Wedgie needs to let Betancourt try closing. Interesting lineup with Lofton leading off (and delivering an 0-fer) and Sizemore batting third (2 run homer in the first = all of Tribe offense). Tribe needs to win at least 2/5 against Detroit--currently 0-1. Fausto tomorrow night.

[Big Al]

How pathetic is my life that I never heard Phil Rizzuto broadcast a game of any kind? That for the longest time, I thought he was just the spokesman for The Money Store?

RIP Scooter. Here's wishing I had.

[Big Al]

Finally a good day at the ballpark.

I totally agree! The Rangers beat the Royals! That's a good thing, right? RIGHT???

[Randy Twizzle]

How pathetic is my life that I never heard Phil Rizzuto broadcast a game of any kind? That for the longest time, I thought he was just the spokesman for The Money Store?

RIP Scooter. Here's wishing I had.

You can check out this audio excerpt from a 1974 game

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/audi...814_RIZZUTO.mp3

And you can also check out the outpouring affection from dozens of people at

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/t...rs-finest-hour/

Reading through the entries on the blog I'm was glad to see I wasn't the only person who shed some tears thinking about Scooter today.

[Jazzmoose]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

Oh, I totally agree with you; it was a facetious comment. I don't think he belongs in the Hall under any guise.

[Randy Twizzle]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

Oh, I totally agree with you; it was a facetious comment. I don't think he belongs in the Hall under any guise.

I think people who obsess about who deserves or doesn't deserve to be in HOF are the kind of people who make listening to sports talk radio such an ordeal.

[MartyJazz]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

I really can't give many reasons why Rizzuto belongs in the Hall except to say that at the very moment Pee Wee Reese, Rizzuto's Dodger contemporary at shortstop, was elected to the Hall, then Phil should have been elected at that moment also instead of having to wait so many years. Their fielding and hitting skills were similar - Phil was the consummate bunter - plus Phil won at least one MVP. Head to head in all those Yankee-Dodger World Series, Phil's team won. So I couldn't understand the sentiment for Pee Wee and none for Phil.

[GA Russell]

I remember watching a Dizzy Dean/Pee Wee Reese Yankees game probably in 1961. Before the game there was an old timers game of maybe three innings that lasted about a half an hour. I'm pretty sure that it was an American League vs. National League deal.

Pee Wee was the National League shortstop and Phil Rizzuto was the American League shortstop. So in the bottom of the first as Rizzuto comes up to the plate, as a gag they bring out a wooden crate for him to stand on. So he did, and he lined a single to left! The American League team won.

So it took a little bit of time for Pee Wee to change and get up to the broadcasting booth to join Dizzy. When he did, Dizzy asked him when he knew that the Nationals were in trouble, and Pee Wee said that he had a good idea they weren't going to win when Rizzuto got a hit standing on a box!

edit for spelling

Edited August 15, 2007 by GA Russell

[Dan Gould]

Finally a good day at the ballpark.

Completely disagree. Nice to see Cabrera pitch well against the Skankees (2 hits but a ton of walks), but Joe Borowski needs to be banished to long relief. Another quality outing for Sabathia gets him a no decision. At the break I thought he had a shot at 20 wins, but those days are gone now. After 7 from Sabathia (96 pitches, 2 runs), Betancourt provided two scoreless innings. Borowski then through BP. Wedgie needs to let Betancourt try closing. Interesting lineup with Lofton leading off (and delivering an 0-fer) and Sizemore batting third (2 run homer in the first = all of Tribe offense). Tribe needs to win at least 2/5 against Detroit--currently 0-1. Fausto tomorrow night.

I'm sorry Patrick but for purposes of getting the Tigers ready for the Yanks, I have to pull for them for the next two weeks. After that, hopefully the Tribe bats come around again, finally. For what its worth, I agree about Betancourt but then who would set up?

[sheldonm]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

Oh, I totally agree with you; it was a facetious comment. I don't think he belongs in the Hall under any guise.

I think people who obsess about who deserves or doesn't deserve to be in HOF are the kind of people who make listening to sports talk radio such an ordeal.

...amen brother!

[Dan Gould]

Not to be disrespectful, but now that he's gone, can we please move him over to the broadcaster's area of the HOF where he belongs?

I was wondering who would bring this up.

There may always be debate about whether he belongs in the Hall (Marty will tell you many reasons why he should) there is no way in hell he belongs in the broadcaster's area of the Hall. I mean, that's ludicrous.

I've never been sure about his qualifications as a player but there's no doubt it didn't hurt that he had friends on the Veteran's Committee.

Oh, I totally agree with you; it was a facetious comment. I don't think he belongs in the Hall under any guise.

I think people who obsess about who deserves or doesn't deserve to be in HOF are the kind of people who make listening to sports talk radio such an ordeal.

...amen brother!

Then what accounts for the other 90% of the audience that keeps me far away from those blowhards?

[Dan Gould]

What do they say about not counting your chickens?

Instead of continuing his sub 1.50 ERA against Tampa Bay Dice-K is throwing batting practice and in the process burying us. 5-0 and only one out in the third. Un fucking believable.

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

Dice-K mania has taken a turn for the worse