"Buy It... Try It... Burn It... Or Return It!"

[Rooster_Ties]

Geeze, now I've seen it all. This (below) was a full-page ad in the most recent free weekly newspaper here in Kansas City.

None of the bolding or sizing is of my doing, the bolding and sizing (as I've presented the ad below) was in the ad pretty much this same way. It was a full-page ad, just inside the front-cover of the paper (a tabloid-style paper, page-sizes similar to that of the NY Post or the Chicago Sun Times).

7TH HEAVEN

Buy It...  Try It...  Burn It...  Or Return It?

Are you tired of getting ripped off when you pay high prices for lousy music?  Tired of paying 15 to 20 dollars for CDs with only one or two good songs?  Well-l-l-l... 7th Heaven has the solution to your problem!

NOW you can buy any compact disc you want and not have to worry about getting screwed...  all you have to do is buy the CD of your choice* at 7th Heaven's everyday low price, take it home, try it out... you can keep it, you can burn it, and if you're unhappy you can even return it... that's right...  return it within 3 days in new condition and we'll give you a credit for what you paid minus $4.99... that's right $4.99 to listen to all your favorite groups or artists...  you can try out any music you want...  you will never have to pay high prices for crummy music again...  WE GUARANTEE IT!

*music over $19.99 excluded

STOP THE MADNESS!  STOP ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING!  DO IT THE GUILT-FREE WAY!  Buy It...  Try It...  Burn It...  Or Return It!

7th Heaven (main location)

7621 Troost

Kansas City, MO  64131-2063

(816) 361-9555

7th Heaven

1000 Massachusetts

Lawrence, KS  66044-2922

(785) 843-3630

7h Heaven

1001 S. Limit

Sedalia, MO  65301-5125

(660) 826-0394

I might add that this store probably sells about 60% brand-new CD's vs. about 40% used (at least based on the inventory in the store), so this isn't a "primarily used CD's" store (where 80% of their CD's are used).

Also, I'm pretty darn sure that when CD's are returned to them (via the process described above), that they're probably rewrapping them (in shrink-wrap), and then re-selling the discs as brand-new, at the same price as the first time they sold it.

I say this because I know for a fact that this place (at least the main location on Troost) has the frequent habit of selling promo CD's (with the barcodes hole-punched) as if they are brand-new product, meaning they sell them at full list price - because they say that their customers don't know the difference, so who cares?? (had a manager there actually tell me that one time, a few years ago).

'Bout dropped my teeth when I read this over dinner tonight at the pizza parlor.

Edited August 30, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Eric]

'd Bronx, I hope ;-)

I might add that the 7th Heaven on Troost is one COOL record store (although not as cool as it used to be). On any given trip 10 years ago, I could come home with a Funkadelic CD, a bootleg REM CD and a TOCJ of Jimmy Smith. As Tom mentions, it is on Troost Ave in KC, which sadly is the black/white dividing line in KC. Sort of our version of "north of the tracks". Anyway, on any given day you can see some guys who are deep into rap, deep into speed metal and then old farts like me (dragging my kids along).

Eric

[Rooster_Ties]

7th Heaven was cool when I first moved here around 1994, but they have steadily declined every year since. They still have some bootleg CD's, last time I was there, but when I saw that they were selling promo CD's (often multiple copies of the same title!!), for like $17.99 each --- that's when I said to hell with 7th Heaven.

They charge the sky-high prices that they do because in the part of town that they are, most of their customers don't have cars in order to drive to other stores offering the same music at cheaper prices. When I asked somebody there (a manger) about the promos, he said "why bother, who can tell the difference?", and when I suggested they might sell those promos at a lower price, like $9 or $10 (which would be similar to what a used CD would normally sell at, and what most used CD stores sell promos at), the guy looked at me like I was from Mars.

They sell what they sell at the prices they sell them for, because they can get away with it. Worst vibe of any record/CD store I've ever been in anywhere in the Kansas City area. I still drop in there once or maybe twice a year, just to see what bootlegs they might have, but really - I always walk out of the place thinking I've been to about the worst record store I've ever been to in all my years. (And that's not because of the part of town they're in -- but rather their attitude towards their customers, which sucks - even on a good day.)

Edited August 30, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[pryan]

I love how the store describes the transactions that take place as being "guilt-free". What a load of shit. The ad should read: "here's another way we're ripping off musicians and those involved in the music business".

Edited August 30, 2003 by pryan

[Rooster_Ties]

"STOP ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING!!!"

What bullshit...

[Guest Chaney]

This is very likely a stupid question but does any of the money on these $4.99 returns (invitations to steal) make its way into the hands of the record companies?

[Rooster_Ties]

Can't imagine how even one penny of it would. In theory, they could "sell" the exact same CD four times, each time having it returned for $4.99 less than they sold it. And then, at the end of the day, they would have made $20 in pure profit, and still have the very same disc they started with.

And knowing that they routinely sell promos as if they were new, they could make that same $20 profit off of "selling" the same promo-disc four times in a row.

"STOP THE MADNESS! STOP ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING! DO IT THE GUILT-FREE WAY!!!"

What utter and complete bullshit.

[Guest Chaney]

An idea: Mail a copy of that ad to your State's Attorney General and see what he thinks.

Missouri Attorney General's Office

[.:.impossible]

The home video industry has been doing something similar for years. The system is more refined, the cost is less, and it is called renting.

I do have a problem with a store re-wrapping an album and calling it new though.

How do you feel about the used CD market?

[Rooster_Ties]

If they want to let people rent CD's, fine. But the implied reason for their "rental" program is to encourage people to violate copyright law. How much clearer can they be???

"Buy It... Try It... Burn It... Or Return It!!!"

Or do they need to say...

"Buy It... Try It... Burn It... AND Return It!!!"

Edited August 30, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[.:.impossible]

I understand. It is their wording. They should be more coy!

Maybe "Buy It... Try It... RIP it... Get $4.99 back when you return it."

As long as they aren't re-wrapping these as new discs, this is nothing different than what most of my favorite locals have been doing for years.

Hey, if you're going to advertise, you might as well go all out! A full page ad that does the thinking for you... a novel idea.

BTW, doesn't the organissimo blindfold test violate copyright law?

[Rooster_Ties]

BTW, doesn't the organissimo blindfold test violate copyright law?

I would guess in most cases that the music being distributed by the Blindfold Test are from albums or CD's that are out-of-print (at least that's what's gonna be on the one I put together).

But technically, you might be right.

BUT, I think there's a BIG difference between 1) our Blindfold Test where no one is making any money out of it (and if fact, people are loosing money), and individual tracks are being burned (not entire CD's), and usually from out-of-print sources (often LP's that have never been released on CD, or possibly other non-CD sources) --- and 2) a company making $5 profit selling (and reselling, multiple times over) brand-new CD's, and encouraging people to duplicate those same CD's rather than paying for them (other than to paying for the use of the CD's for 3 days, in order to copy them), with no income going to the distributors, record companies, or artists.

Big difference in my book, and I suspect also in the eyes of the courts.

[Jazzmoose]

BTW, doesn't the organissimo blindfold test violate copyright law?

Does it? It seems like fair use to me; I don't know. I do know that, at least judging from the first disc, it's going to generate some sales for the artists copied, at least if I can find them!

[Rooster_Ties]

It sounds like "fair use" to me, or at least pretty damn close.

In any case, it's a hell of a lot different than renting CD's and suggesting that people copy them, and then turning around and selling those same CD's again as new (or renting them again, and then selling them as new).

Light-years difference.

[Jazzmoose]

No comparison, RT. I can't help but wonder what the record labels, distributors, etc., that serve that store would think of that ad...

[Rooster_Ties]

Hey Jim, Joe, and Randy,

I just found a couple dozen more people here in Kansas City who are all really interested in your Organissimo CD, and great news!!! - they're each thinking about buying it!!!!

But, I've decided to "rent" each of them one of the extra Organissimo CD's I have (one by one, in succession), so they can each burn a copy for themselves. Hope you don't mind. I'm only making $120 out the deal (and you're not making anything), but after all - I did pay you for the one I'm using to loan to them.

Thanks a bunch guys!!!! -- Rooster T.

PS: If anybody else in KC wants a copy, just say the word. I won't copy it for you, but for $5 you can "borrow" it from me, and it's all yours. And remember, I need it back in 3 days, or else you gotta pay me $17.99 for it. Sorry, that's the rules.

And don't forget: "STOP ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING!!!"

Edited August 31, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[.:.impossible]

I don't think that is a very fair way of setting it up Rooster. Maybe you are misinterpreting me.

I see a huge difference between the video and CD market. Once a film has been out in theatres and made its millions, it is subsequently released on video format for home use. A secondary form of revenue streams.

I am under the impression, by now, that rock bands for instance, make all of their money on the road. In most cases, the margin on recordings for a band is very little. I seem to remember Chuck Nessa posting a typical cost-analysis model, or something to that effect, here on the board.

I have to say it again, as long as they aren't re-wrapping these as new discs, this is nothing different than what most of my favorite locals have been doing for years. For years, I have been buying new and used vinyl and compact discs. If I want to sell a new CD back, I am going to get $4.99. If I want to sell a CD that I bought USED, I am going to get $4.99. That is common policy. I guess $4.99 is the magic number.

Maybe someone with some record store experience can address this thread. I am simply thinking out loud here.

.........

In your post above, you are selling ONE copy of the Organissimo CD a couple dozen times as a new disc? Is this what the store in question is doing? That is my question.

I have no problem with the blindfold test. In fact, I think it would be a lot of fun to participate in. Out of print or not, we are ripping and burning copyright music, aren't we? I am not that familiar with the laws on this. There seems to be a lot of grey area. "Fair use" seems to be a vague term that second year law students could debate for an entire semester. I will talk to a friend of mine who is studying intellectual property law. Maybe he can shed some light on the subject. Would it be different if we were posting .shn files for download instead of sending multiple cdrs across the country? How does that change the scenario? It would obviously be more cost effective!

Look, I don't burn cds for money. I don't post on these boards asking people for cdrs of out-of-print material. I rarely even burn cds for friends. Most of the cdrs I own are live music recordings. I am simply questioning the limits of the law in this particular scenario. In the process, thinking out loud, and trying to initiate discussion on the merits of other possible "file sharing" practices.

In an age of subscription download services, .99 downloads, file-sharing networks, and a cd burner in every new computer being sold in the United States, I'm sure this is the type of thing that industry execs are discussing on a daily basis.

[Rooster_Ties]

I think you misunderstand their offer.

They sell you a brand new CD for $17.99.

Burn a copy if you like, since you own it.

Then bring it back within 3 days, and they'll give you $13.00 in credit back towards another purchase. (That's $17.99 minus $4.99 in profit for them, and THEY get the disk back, to sell again.)

And then, odds are that they're rewrapping that very same CD and selling it again as "new" at $17.99.

I'm pretty sure they're rewrapping the returned discs and selling them as new, because in the past (at least at the Troost store) - I've seen dozens of promo CD's being sold as brand-new product, at full list price ($15.99, $16.99, $17.99). I don't know where they're getting their promos from (or is was a practice only done in the past), but I observed this on multiple occasions, with multiple promo-copies of multiple titles. I was even told by one of their managers (a few years ago) that selling promos as if they were new didn't matter, because "their customers wouldn't and/or couldn't tell the difference, so who cares???".

So, in other words, they have the potential to sell the same exact disc (one CD, not multiple copies of the same CD), over and over and over and over again, charging $5 each time that someone buys it and presumably burns a copy of it (as they say in their ad), and then return it.

At no time in this process does the distributor, record label, or artist see one penny of that $5 from the "rental" process they're advertising.

Edited August 31, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[.:.impossible]

And then, odds are that they're rewrapping that very same CD and selling it again as "new" at $17.99.

That is the question.

Now I have another question. I wonder what the retailer's rights really are. They buy the disc at retailer costs, so their rights of ownership are probably different than the end-user. I wonder if the end-user has the right to sell and resell his/her property, assuming a CD would be considered his/her property after purchase.

I don't know anything about this stuff. I think it is wrong either way. Sometimes, if I think too much about buying used CDs, I think the whole thing is wrong. So it is...

[Jazzmoose]

"Fair use" seems to be a vague term that second year law students could debate for an entire semester.

Hell, 1+1=2 is vague enough for second year law students to debate for an entire semester!

Of course, once you pass the bar, the loopholes seem obvious...

[.:.impossible]

Ha!

[Ed S]

Am I correct that the it is legal to burn copies for your own use only as long as you actually own the original license (CD)?

If this is the case then burning copies while you own a CD and selling it back while retaining the copies would be illegal. To openly solicit someone to do something illegal is, well........illegal too, I guess.