Guy Berger Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) The general spotty availability of a lot of jazz recordings in the 1970s is probably difficult to identify with today. With no internet and no major reissue programs, it was very hit and miss to find and buy an album you had read about in a national magazine or in a book. FWIW, the relevant time frame is the 60s, not the 70s -- that's when most of the prog guys came of musical age. In the King Crimson box Epitaph they have a bunch of band bios from 1969 and I was surprised at some of the names the guys dropped as influences. Guy Edited June 14, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 (edited) In regards to the Eddie Van Halen -Holdsworth connection, maybe I could have phrased it a little better. It was more the overall approach I was referring to, the attitude more than the technique. Later Holdsworth sounds nothing like EVH, but he was quite a bit rawer during this period with Lifetime. There are quite a few moments on that record where you can hear flashes of the Satriani, Vai, Morse, etc school of savvy guitarists to come. I don't consider Van Halen to be metal either. Edited June 14, 2007 by Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) I am not a huge prog rock fan either Jim, but I hear a lot of stuff in this record that sort of relates more to people of my generation. Tony's "vocals" have this sort of apathetic sense to them. I've mentioned this before, but I was in a shop buying Jazz CDs when I had this conversation with the guy behind the counter. I said was there any new Rock he would recommend and he said "The Mars Volta" - that the guitarist had been influenced by McLaughlin. Listening to the record, it jumped right out at me on a couple of tracks: Lifetime/Turn It Over - mostly because of the vocals but also partly because of the guitar style. This is a 2006 record. When I did a CDR (later) for the guy, he really liked the tracks I did from TIO record. I actually hear Tony's vocals as being something in the same place as Robert Wyatt on "Rock Bottom", kind of with an overwhelmingly rootedly depression thing. The funny thing is I never much liked TIO. Now I do. Simon Weil [Edit: confusing Emergency with TIO] Edited June 15, 2007 by Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 The general spotty availability of a lot of jazz recordings in the 1970s is probably difficult to identify with today. With no internet and no major reissue programs, it was very hit and miss to find and buy an album you had read about in a national magazine or in a book. FWIW, the relevant time frame is the 60s, not the 70s -- that's when most of the prog guys came of musical age. In the King Crimson box Epitaph they have a bunch of band bios from 1969 and I was surprised at some of the names the guys dropped as influences. Guy Well, it depends. I used to do lights with a rubbish rock band and they were well and truly influenced by Weather Report (very easily accessible in more ways than one). Mid 70s people began to doubt rock. Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 ..... I also wonder what year Tony abandoned the smaller kit for the infamous yellow Gretsch with the dot heads and the huge bass drum? Hard to say when it exactly happened. Seems he still worked on the sound after turning to that bigger kit - albums like the Stanley Clarke debut LP on Nemperor and his last for Polydor "The Old Bum's Rush" are evidence of that. "Ego" clearly still has the smaller kit in use. "Believe it" has the new one at full throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Re: Emergency - Yes I think it was influential, but more on a general level, encouraging jazz musicians to go the rock route if they felt that way. The players involved were so unique it was impossible to copy the sound. As far as the playing concept is concerned, Weather Report was copied the most, I think. Mahavishnu was rhythmically too intricate (at least for most people here - the only other guy fond of these rhythms on the local scene is still one of my best friends). Tony as a drummer was very influential - after "Believe It" his licks popped up on plenty jazzrock albums I heard in the discos here playing such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Mahavishnu was rhythmically too intricate (at least for most people here - the only other guy fond of these rhythms on the local scene is still one of my best friends). Mike, I think there were a lot of fusion and prog rock bands that were influenced by Mahavishnu. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Mahavishnu was rhythmically too intricate (at least for most people here - the only other guy fond of these rhythms on the local scene is still one of my best friends). Mike, I think there were a lot of fusion and prog rock bands that were influenced by Mahavishnu. Guy Please go ahead and drop some names - I'll gladly stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Mahavishnu was rhythmically too intricate (at least for most people here - the only other guy fond of these rhythms on the local scene is still one of my best friends). Mike, I think there were a lot of fusion and prog rock bands that were influenced by Mahavishnu. Guy Please go ahead and drop some names - I'll gladly stand corrected. Jeff Beck - Blow by Blow, Wired and There and Back. Yes - Relayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Mahavishnu was rhythmically too intricate (at least for most people here - the only other guy fond of these rhythms on the local scene is still one of my best friends). Mike, I think there were a lot of fusion and prog rock bands that were influenced by Mahavishnu. Guy Please go ahead and drop some names - I'll gladly stand corrected. I'm too lazy to find every single example, but "Mahavishnu" pops up in a lot of band descriptions at the GEPR. I am not sure whether to include mid-70s King Crimson in this list -- while Fripp has denied listening to MO, the lineup is almost exactly identical. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 I am not sure whether to include mid-70s King Crimson in this list -- while Fripp has denied listening to MO, the lineup is almost exactly identical. That Bruford/'70s band always reminded me of MO., even before I knew much about music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) Mahavishnu was rhythmically too intricate (at least for most people here - the only other guy fond of these rhythms on the local scene is still one of my best friends). Mike, I think there were a lot of fusion and prog rock bands that were influenced by Mahavishnu. Guy Please go ahead and drop some names - I'll gladly stand corrected. I'm too lazy to find every single example, but "Mahavishnu" pops up in a lot of band descriptions at the GEPR. I am not sure whether to include mid-70s King Crimson in this list -- while Fripp has denied listening to MO, the lineup is almost exactly identical. Guy I heard those guys in concert and it sounds like a different thing to me. Rock bass-player, no Jan Hammer. Fripp for McLaughlin. Lack of virtuosity. Controlled, really. Simon Weil Edited June 15, 2007 by Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 That's what I think. Guitarists, of course. But the ryhthmic concept - nobody copied it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Rock bass-player, no Jan Hammer. Fripp for McLaughlin. Lack of virtuosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 (edited) That's what I think. Guitarists, of course. But the ryhthmic concept - nobody copied it! What part of the rhythmic concept do you mean? Most of the prog-fusion hybrids I've heard have a ton of the asymmetric meters, busy drumming and syncopated rhythms that characterize Mahavishnu's music. Guy Edited June 15, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 Come on...any fumble fingers can play Fracture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Lack of virtuosity? Maybe...but who cares really? Memorable? Definitely. Fripp may not be a technical "God" on the guitar, but most technical players annoy the living shit out of me. I'll take attitude and passion over chops any day of the week. Plus I'll always consider "no Jan Hammer" a really GOOD thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Lack of virtuosity? Maybe...but who cares really? Memorable? Definitely. Fripp may not be a technical "God" on the guitar, but most technical players annoy the living shit out of me. I'll take attitude and passion over chops any day of the week. As David alluded to above, Fripp is certainly no slouch in the "chops" department. Plus I'll always consider "no Jan Hammer" a really GOOD thing! I think Hammer was great in the first Mahavishnu Orchestra. (And also on J Abercrombie's Timeless.) Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 I think Jan Hammer is one of the greatest synthesizer players because with him it sounds like a physical instrument, not a plastic keyboard with electronic devices attached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 ok 1st of jan hammer is far from the worlds greatest synth player- he takes the exact same solo over every song. patrick moraz or even deodato could play circles around him in the same context/ regarding YES, certain members did speak very highly of their interest in mahavishnu, but yes were doing their own thing and werent really "influenced" by them so to speak, their repsective passed actually only crossed only four times, the 1st being 11-28-71, in NY on a bill with mahaivishunu and the kinks/ 8-11-72 in akron w/ mahivinu and the EAGLES 9-2-72 in london w/ m.o and gary wright and finally the last time was early on in the on the relayer tour 12-2-74, at the houston astrodome of all places Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Lack of virtuosity? Maybe...but who cares really? Memorable? Definitely. Fripp may not be a technical "God" on the guitar, but most technical players annoy the living shit out of me. I'll take attitude and passion over chops any day of the week. Plus I'll always consider "no Jan Hammer" a really GOOD thing! Just to get it straight, I much preferred Larks Tongues to Inner Mounting when they came out. But now, I don't know. I just find the kind of reduced technique reduces the suprise in the record - in this way IMF (!) is much closer to Jazz, and that was really my point: to indicate that it had that Jazz flexibility/surprise which LTIA lacks. Fripp strikes me as strong in the conceptual/writing department but, well, I know where the next trick's coming from after 30 years. I do feel its thrill's kind of worn off - and I think (now) that it's because it came more from more attitude than from passion. That said I totally agree with you about technical players, can maybe see where you're coimg from with Hammer and agreed with you about "Alien" (whoops wrong thread). The keyboards on LTIA are like effects, though. Not with Hammer. Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 I have very mixed feelings about Fripp, but the suggeston that he is lacking in technical mastery of his instrument is absolutely mind boggling to me. My god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Jan Hammer with Elvin is nothing to shy away from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Oops, I hope my post didn't sound like I was putting down Fripp's chops. It was actually my warped idea of a backhanded compliment. Fripp is one of my favorites. That "Islands" band was amazing, Fripp's guitar & mellotron work on A Sailor's Tale is exactly my kind of thang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 16, 2007 Report Share Posted June 16, 2007 Considering everything I read here, I still find Mahavishnu unique. Several bands covered aspects of that band, but none covered all of them: the energy, the Indian scales, the rhythms, the spiritual touch, and the accomplished solos. I repeat: all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.