Pepper Adams

[mrjazzman]

Ok folks, time for a little controversey. Is there any doubt in anyones mind that Pepper Adams was the greatest bari saxophonist that ever played? Yes, better than Mulligan(why do they keep comparing the two) Serge Chaloff, Gil Melle, Cecil Payne, Harry Carney, Nick Brignola. I'm probably leaving out a few. Of the current players, Ronnie Cuber and Gary Smulyan come closest. For me, next to Pepper it's Leo Parker. I've got my suit of armor on so let the attacks begin........................

[sal]

I agree with you.

[Guest Bill Barton]

I'm not exactly attacking, but I'm of the opinion that jazz or any creative music is not a horse race or a boxing match, there aren't "winners" and "losers." Personally I try to avoid saying one musician is "the greatest" or "the best." No argument that Pepper was a masterful player, that's for sure: tons of technique and scads of soul.

[six string]

I would agree with the above poster's comments about best this or that. However, Pepper Adams is my favorite bari player of alltimes. No disrespect to all the others out there that I enjoy.

[Dave James]

No contest. Lars Gullin.

Up over and out.

[Larry Kart]

I love Gullin, but he and Adams (whom I like a lot when he's on his game -- i.e. not too lick-oriented) are such different players that they might as well be playing two different kinds of instrument. And Harry Carney is playing yet a third kind, and Serge maybe a fourth. Likewise with some other fine bari players, though other fine ones do seem to share a corporate instrumental identity. It's a very interesting horn.

[AllenLowe]

Jack Washington? Nah, not really, just trying to sound smart - later Lars Gullin is beautiful; I never liked Mulligan; Serge is amazing, especially, the Capitols; Cecil Payne plays beautifully on the 1950s Savoy with Dorham, has a sort of lighter touch with still plenty of deep tones; I like Adams, but sometimes he sounds a little too bebop-auto pilot.

[BFrank]

[robviti]

sorry, but if this is what passes for "controversy," than maybe it is time to put the big "O" to rest. mind you, i'm talking about the board, not the band.

[JSngry]

The thing I liked about Pepper was that he always had this slyness in his pocket, this way of playing subtle rhythmic and articulational games with his line that sounded like he was winking at something, although what it was, hey, you tell me.

But that Transition date w/Trane, I swear it sounds to me like he's kinda playing Trane's phraseology back at him, not to be a smartass or anything, but just as a grin. Not many people would come at Trane with the idea of grinning, if you know what I mean.

So yeah, Winks & Grins Adams, why not?

And let's not forget about his skills as a section player either. Bari is crucial, because that's the base from which the rest of the sections pitches/overtones will contend with as the fundamental in terms of blend. Everybody talks about great lead altoists, and they should, but trust me, I don't care how good the rest of the section is, if you got a pussy bari player, it's gonna sound weak, no matter what. And look at who used Pepper in their sections - quite a list, to be sure, and if he didn't have a monopoly on the section NYC work in the 60s, what he got was nothing to be shy about either. Whole 'nother set of skills than soloing, but hey, let's look at the total talent, eh? His only real equal would be Carney, and that's a totally different thing, different ways of doing the same thing, and just for longevity and majesty of context, I'll give Carney the nod as a section player. But who cares?

Not sure about this "greatest" stuff. What's the prize and when does it get delivered? Do dead folk really care? And do the live folk really need it?

The cat was a bad mofo, though, that's for sure.

[JSngry]

It's a very interesting horn.

It's in Eb like an alto, but deep like a tenor. You'd be surprised how many "foo-foo" alto players sound like real men on bari.

But that Eb thing...that's weird. It's a Bb & C world, and everybody else is just living in it. But the ones who strike hard in Eb strike REALLY hard, so maybe it's a trap that'll either fuck you up or set you all the way free, I don't know.

But Eb....man...I can't think right in Eb.

[marcello]

Here's a nice video of Pepper stomping through a tune:

Pepper Adams

He was a guy who always had fun on the stage and made others play well and sound good, as witnessed here.

Edited December 7, 2007 by marcello

[Free For All]

It's a very interesting horn.

It's in Eb like an alto, but deep like a tenor. You'd be surprised how many "foo-foo" alto players sound like real men on bari.

But that Eb thing...that's weird. It's a Bb & C world, and everybody else is just living in it. But the ones who strike hard in Eb strike REALLY hard, so maybe it's a trap that'll either fuck you up or set you all the way free, I don't know.

But Eb....man...I can't think right in Eb.

Eb tunes lay well for us bass-cleffers. Bird tunes are in an excellent range. Plus I can play an Eb part by just changing the clef to bass and adding a couple accidentals.

Clifford's (and other Bb) tunes are usually too low/high and need to be transposed up a fourth or so. Joy Spring is fun to blow over, but the head is a nightmare on trombone. Too low to effectively cop all the ornamentations, but too high if you 8VA it.

[White Lightning]

There's something about the Bari that draws such "best-of" contest. No one in his right mind would try to determine who's the best tenor or alto saxist, who's the best trumpeter. No one with his right mind will try to decide who's best - Fatha Hines, Bud Powell or Cecil Taylor.

I can understand comparing Adams with Brignola, Cuber and Smulyan. They play in the same genre, more or less. But what's the point in the Gullin-Pepper comparison? Apples and oranges.

[Dave James]

I think in the context of this discussion, you have to substitute the word "favorite" for "greatest" or "best". That's the only way Gullin and Adams can peacefully coexist in the same dialogue.

Marcello, thanks for posting that v-clip. Adams could definitely swing. I'd never heard him talk. He had some great pipes. If he hadn't been a musician, he might have done voice work for a living.

Up over and out.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Baritone players really do have something of an advantage over other players. Eb is it? I thought it was that powerful sound that just stirs you from your soles to your soul.

Pepper does and I always know I'm going to get stirred. Never more than with his solo on Turrentine's "Baptismal".

But, for me, Leo Parker, Ronnie Cuber and Hog Cooper blast my socks off.

Interesting point about alto/baritone players. Hank Crawford first impressed me on baritone on the first Newman album, "Fathead". But he rarely played baritone after Ray moved up to an octet and Hog came in. His alto playing is altogether different from his baritone playing. Bebop on baritone, blues on alto (and very BASIC blues on piano).

MG

[thomastreichler]

I'm not exactly attacking, but I'm of the opinion that jazz or any creative music is not a horse race or a boxing match, there aren't "winners" and "losers." Personally I try to avoid saying one musician is "the greatest" or "the best." No argument that Pepper was a masterful player, that's for sure: tons of technique and scads of soul.

I completely agree with this statement. Discussions on who is "the best" on a particular instrument do not make any sense. On any given instrument there is a lesser or greater number of performers who can be considered playing in the same league. As for the baritone-sax this would certainly be at least Serge Chaloff, Gerry Mulligan, Cecil Payne, Harry Carney, Pepper Adams, Lars Gullin, Gary Smulyan, Scott Robinson and possibly a few more. It is primarily a matter of personal taste, and sometimes of temporary moods, which player is one's favorite. I usually avoid labeling certain musicians as "the best" and rather speak of "favorite" players or performers I "like best".

[mrjazzman]

Here's a nice video of Pepper stomping through a tune:

Pepper Adams

He was a guy who always had fun on the stage and made others play well and sound good, as witnessed here.

WOW, thank you very much for that..............

[sidewinder]

Here's a nice video of Pepper stomping through a tune:

Pepper Adams

He was a guy who always had fun on the stage and made others play well and sound good, as witnessed here.

WOW, thank you very much for that..............

That's from a TV show that was recorded up in North-West England in the early 1980s for one of the UK channels (Granada?) and can be found 'at a certain site'.

Edited December 7, 2007 by sidewinder

[NaturalSoul]

I dig Pepper, but don't own alot of him. But speaking of baritone, one solo that absolutely amazes me is Fred Jackson's solo of John Patton's "The Way I Feel". Oh my god, probably one of my favorite solos period.

[Hot Ptah]

Pepper Adams made a major contribution to Mingus' "Blues and Roots", in my opinion. It would have been much less bluesy and rootsy without him. That opening line on "Moanin'" is notable to me.

[Free For All]

Pepper had many great moments on the Thad & Mel recordings. Also loved his contribution to Lee Morgan's "The Cooker", and the things he did w/Jimmy Knepper.

Another great side previously discussed was Pepper's "Encounter".

Also love the other bari players mentioned. Different styles for different moods, it's all good!

[BruceH]

Pepper Adams is one of my favorites, along with Chaloff and Carney. Wouldn't even try to choose between them.

[six string]

I love Pepper's albums with Donald Byrd. That was a great combination and possibly one of the best "teams" in bop.

But let's not forget about Sahib Shihab either!

[Guest Bill Barton]

Some enterprising producer needs to get access to the BeeHive catalog and get this stuff on CD. That Baritone Madness album with Brignola is a scorcher. It was also nice to see Scott Robinson's name brought up. He's one of the finest baritone players around these days. Perhaps the fact that he is a multi-instrumentalist serves to obscure that fact. But his work with Maria Schneider alone should put him in the "essential" list. And then there's that amazing "traps, taps, bass clarinet" trio on Bob Moses' Nishoma CD ("Caravan to the Stars")...